The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs

The first item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs. Angela Burns isn't present to ask question 1, therefore, question 2, David Rowlands.

Question 1 [OAQ51755] not asked.

Planning Law

David J Rowlands AC: 2. A wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet amlinellu sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu symleiddio'r gyfraith gynllunio yng Nghymru i'w gwneud yn haws i'w deall? OAQ51744

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. This week, I published the consultation, a completely revised 'Planning Policy Wales', to make it more streamlined. In addition, I've asked the Law Commission to undertake a review of planning law in Wales to provide recommendations on simplifying and consolidating planning legislation.

David J Rowlands AC: Thank you for that reply, Cabinet Secretary. I do understand thatthe Welsh Government has planning laws under consideration, but would the Cabinet Secretary not agree with me that simplicity must constitute a key element in theGovernment's approach to any changes to laws governing planning, especially given thatplanning laws in Wales at present are so complicated and often difficult to interpret and that the increasing divergence between theplanning laws of England and Wales is, perhaps, exacerbating the situation?
New legislationmade in the Assembly and in the UK Parliament may apply to Wales only, to England only or to both England and Wales, thus creating an evermore complex planning regime. Can you give us an assurance, Cabinet Minister, that, when the report is published in March, you will take these concerns into account?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I certainly think there is a very clear need to simplify and consolidate Welsh planninglegislation, and, certainly, the scoping paper that the Law Commission brought forward back in July 2016—I think it was something like 94 per cent of respondents clearly said that there was a need to simplify it, so I certainly wouldn't argue with that.
I think, also, since I've been inportfolio, a great number of stakeholders have told me that they do find it very difficult to work through the existing very complexlegislation. So, simplification has to be top of the list, I think.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Good afternoon, Minister. At the moment, planning consent will normally lapse unless development is started within three years. Local authorities may serve a completion notice stating that the planning permission will cease if there is expiration of a further specified period, but they do not have the power to require that a development should actually be completed. That is the scenario. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to simplify the process for serving completion notices by giving local authorities in Wales the power to specify a date by which a development must be completed? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: That is not something that I did ahead of the consultation that I launched on Monday. So, in relation to planning law, which was the original question, I mentioned that we've got two consultations running in parallel—the Law Commission one and the one that I launched on Monday. Andcertainly, within that 'Planning Policy Wales' consultation, it's something that we can look at.

Mick Antoniw AC: Cabinet Secretary, you'll be aware of the concerns I've raised about the clarity of planning law in respect of houses in multiple occupation and the way that has particularly impacted on parts of my constituency, andTreforest in particular, whereyou see communities beginningto disintegrate because of the unbridledgrowth of HMOs. Could you outline what the position is with regard to HMOs and what you intend to do in respect of the representationsfor those communities that are under threat in thatparticular way?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Yes, I'm very aware of your concerns and I share your concerns. I think we had a very constructive meeting with my officials who, you'll be aware, are analysing the planning appeals that have come forward regarding HMOs right across Wales—in all areas of Wales, I think—to identify if there are any specific issues that we need to look at.
You'll be aware that it is for local authorities to decide whether to introduce local policies against which to assess planning applications for HMOs, and that's after they've considered the costs and benefits for each individual application. And I do understand that Rhondda Cynon Taf council has recently prepared draft supplementary planning guidance on HMOs, and that's currently out for public consultation also. I think that's something that I would very much support.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. The latest figures on the agricultural workforce by the Office for National Statistics, which were published this month, show that53,500 workers work in the sector in Wales,and, with less than five per cent of the population of the UK, 11.5 per cent of all agricultural workers are here in Wales. Therefore, I think it’s fair to say, as we exit the European Union, that this is another example of how the agricultural sector is going to be open to significant harm—twice as likely, broadly speaking—because of the numbers involved in the workforce. So, can the Cabinet Secretary give us an update on what the situation is now in terms of discussions with the UK Government, and the other Governments in the UK, on establishing a framework for agriculture as we exit the European Union, and ensuring that the voice of Wales, and the rights of the workforce in Wales, are part of that framework?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Simon, for that question. You'll be aware of our quadrilateral meetings. We haven't met now since before Christmas, but we are due to meet a week on Monday, actually, here in Cardiff, with the Secretary of State from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and also obviously my Scottish counterparts, and, probably, the Permanent Secretary from Northern Ireland. Workforce is clearly a massive issue for the agricultural sector, andcertainly the last three farms, I think, I visited over the last month, all of them had a significant number of EU nationals working on the farm. So, we can see what a huge issue it would be if there were a narrowing of the ability of our farmers, and the agricultural sector, to have a workforce from the EU nationals.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m grateful for that. Of course,the issue of the workforce from the rest of the EU is an issue of concern, but it’s also true to say that we should be using every tool in our possession to assist young people in Wales to succeed in agriculture. You will know, of course, that we came to an agreement on £6 million for the young entrants scheme, and the interest in this scheme has been incredible, if truth be told, and the number of young people who have expressed an interest in venturing into this field is heartening, because I don’t always share their enthusiasm, given what Brexit may hold for us. But I do see that young people do want to take a chance in agriculture and I want the Government to support that as much as possible. You have said publicly already that you hoped that the scheme will be delivered on time and will be announced very soon. So, can you give an update to the whole Assembly as to what you hope to achieve through this scheme and how you hope this scheme for young entrants will support and prepare the whole workforce for the challenges of Brexit?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Like you, Simon, I think it's really invigorating to see young people want to have a career in agriculture and go forward and get their own holding, for instance. And you'll be aware that the main issue around the scheme is that it's their first time having a holding in their own name. So, what we plan to do is give—I think it's a significant amount of funding—about £40,000, to enable that to happen. There has been a significant interest in the scheme. Officials are still working up the specific details, so I can't update on that. However, we're going to be ready to go on 1 April, and I am absolutely convinced that we will be ready to go on 1 April. And, obviously, you mentioned that there's £6 million available, from our budget agreement between our two parties—£2 million, and then £4 million in the second year. So, I'm absolutely convinced that we will spend all that money, and, who knows, maybe there will be even more of an interest in it. But I certainly want to encourage all young people to come forward and apply for it.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you for that. I look forward to the launch of the scheme, but I look forward even more to seeing, in two years' time, young people having responsibility for holdings for the first time, and showing the way forward for agriculture in future. I’m very confident that the young farmers of Wales have the ideas to do that.
I will conclude on another aspect of exiting the European Union, which is different in Wales compared to the situation over the border in England, or over the sea in Ireland. I am talking about fisheries. A report on fisheries in Wales was published yesterday by the Public Policy Institute for Wales, and that demonstrated, of course, what’s more important to the kind of fishing fleet we have in Wales, which tends to be smaller and fishes for shellfish rather than fish as such—that they want access to those European markets, and that they want that to be tariff free and open, rather than having ownership of the seas, where it tends to have been steering the debate on CAF and European policies.
When I visited Milford Haven, I was struck by how much processing was happening in Belgium of produce that was gathered in Cardigan bay, much of which is transported back and forth in lorries through Wales. So, what can you as a Government do now to ensure that more processing happens here in Wales and also to ensure, however, that we can still sell that processed food with added value directly into the markets that are still important to us?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes. Just this morning, I met with representatives of the Welsh fishing association, and you won't be surprised tolearn that the continuation of being tariff free is incredibly important to them. You will have heard the First Minister say yesterday that, when he was in Ireland on Monday, he heard about five lorries of fish that couldn't get out of the country, and, certainly, the representativesI met with this morning are even more concerned that, as we go forward, post Brexit, that that situation could happen even more unless the UK Government get this absolutely right from the outset. So, these are discussions that I will continue to have with my counterparts, certainly with the UK Government, and I know, in relation to trade and tariff-free trade, the First Minister will continue, and also my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, in his discussions.

The Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in May last year, I highlighted the Blue Cross's 'Unpicking the Knots' report, which showed that the last time Government brought in a specific law to regulate the sale of pets was in 1951. Given that times have changed significantly since the Pet Animals Act 1951, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to strengthen existing legislation and perhaps introduce new legislation to regulate the sale of pets here in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, we certainly are looking at what legislation we need in relation to animal welfare. You will be aware that a lot of it is very old, and we're having discussions currently with the UK Governmentaround the animal welfare (sentencing and recognition of sentience) Bill for instance. But, in relation to pets, we've been looking at the code of practices also, and I'm bringing forward a statement—I think it's in March—around a package of either legislation, measures or licensingthat we need around animal welfare.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I'm glad to hear that you'll be bringing forward a statement on this particular issue, Cabinet Secretary. Now, one of the more difficult issues that needs tackling is in relation to the scale of unlicensed activity and the rise in the online sale of pets in Wales. The invisibility of this trading system has resultedin many online sellers being able to avoid pet breeding and vending legislation, and it crucially pays no regard to an animal's welfare. Therefore, can you tell us why the Welsh Government has not prioritised this animal welfare issue until now, and can you also tell us what specific action the Welsh Government will be taking to address this particular issue as a matter of urgency?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I mentioned that I will be bringing forward a statement in March, so I can't give you a specific update now. It's not that it hasn't been a priority, but you'll be aware that there are lots of priorities, and animal welfare is veryhigh up, certainly, on my agenda and that of the Welsh Government. So, officials are working to bring forward a package of measures around animalwelfare and, as I say, I will be making a statement in March in the Chamber.

Paul Davies AC: We already know that local authorities in Wales are struggling to enforce regulations on pet shops and dog breeders, andso perhaps there's an opportunity for Wales to lead the way by developing a bespoke registration licensing system for anyone breeding or selling animals, which would include all vendors, from pet shops to online breeders. Therefore, when you bring this statementforward in the next few weeks, will you commit to seriously considering perhaps the merits of a bespoke registrationand licensing system for pet breeders and sellers in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I'm happy to look at anything that will, obviously, improve animal welfare standards. Local authorities haven't specifically raised that concern with me, but, again, if you have any specific knowledgethat you would like to pass on to me, please do.

The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Inland fisheries and freshwater fishing is an importantpart of the rural economy. The Environment Agency has estimated that there are about 1,500 jobs in Wales that depend directly upon it. Whilst we're all concerned aboutthe levels of salmon and sea trout in our rivers in Wales, I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary couldgive me her views upon Natural Resources Wales's proposals tointroduce a 10-year mandatory catch and release policy, and also to introduce a blanket ban on anglers taking any salmon they catch to eat. The angling fraternity is very concerned about this because, obviously, taking home one's catch is an integral part of fishing for many, many anglers, and for the enjoyment of sport. There is a possibility that if the result of this is to deter people from coming to Wales, in particular to enjoy our rivers for fishing, that could have a detrimental effect also upon tourism in the countryside.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm waiting for Natural Resources Wales to supply their recommendations, following their consultation on this. I'm expecting it probably within the next two months. So, at the moment, I can't comment.

Neil Hamilton AC: Okay. Well, I understand the Cabinet Secretary's position on that. There are very diverse reasons for the decline in fish stocks in our rivers. One of them is predation by fish-eating birds. There's a great deal of evidence now. The Angling Trusthas produced a database, for example, of predators within inland situations.Apparently, cormorants are now a significant factor in this. Although they're fundamentally seabirds, lots of them are taking fish from our rivers and posing, I think, a dire threat to, particularly, young salmon. There are licences, which are granted, for taking predators and so reducing the scale of this problem. I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary would consider making it easier to qualify for these licences. This at least will be a partial solution to a growing problem that we've got with our rivers.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Again, that's not an issue that's been raised with me, but I will ask my colleague the Minister for Environment to raise it with NRW at her next meeting.

Neil Hamilton AC: And I suppose the elephant in the room for most people is the extent of river pollution. I know that this is a much bigger issue than just in relation to fish stocks. We've had many a debate here about proposals for nitrate vulnerable zones and so on, butalthough nobody denies that there is a problem with pollution, it is being addressed by voluntary action, to a great extent. We've drawn attention in the past to the schemes that exist in Pembrokeshire that have been very successful.Pollution does kill far more salmon and sea trout each year than the proposals, which NRW have put forward, for controls on exploitation by nets and fishermen of salmon and sea trout would save, and so this is aproblem that should be viewed in the round rather than ascribed to one cause over another. So, I hope that, when she considers NRW's proposals, she will introduce a sense of proportion into the proposals, which they have put on the table. Because there's a feeling that, in Wales, NRW is proposing something that is far more draconian than will be applied in England, in particular. Therefore, going back to what we were talking about earlier on, in Simon Thomas's question, of discussions with your counterpart in England on agricultural issues, we do need to inform ourselves in Wales of the position in other parts of the United Kingdom and the proposals for improvement, which other Ministers are bringing in. We mustn't disadvantage fishermen in Wales in particular unnecessarily.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think proportionality is very important in any steps that you take. You mentioned about voluntary action. Certainly, the reason I brought forward the statement I did on NVZs was because, whilst I don't think the current voluntary sorts of schemes have worked in a way that we would want them to—and we've seen significant agricultural pollution of our rivers, for instance—I do think that, if you can work with the sector, it's much better than bringing forward legislation, and that's why I brought forward the statement I have. But, again, I will ask the Minister for Environment to raise it with NRW at her next regular meeting.

Question 3: Mark Reckless is not in the Chamber to ask question 3. This is the second Member within three questions who has been absent. So, if I could request that business managers—and one, in particular, this afternoon—to ensure the attendance of Members who have declared an intention to ask questions in future, then I would appreciate that.

Question 3 [OAQ51764]not asked.

Question 4, therefore—David Melding.

Smart Meters

David Melding AC: 4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact that smart meters are having on combating fuel poverty in Wales? OAQ51750

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Smart meters are a non-devolved matter, but we are working with Smart Energy GB and Ofgem to ensure that the needs of Welsh consumers are considered in the roll-out of smart meters. Within the powers available to Welsh Government, the most direct way in which we can tackle fuel poverty is to improve the energy efficiency of homes.

David Melding AC: Two weeks ago, I was with British Gas to discuss the roll-out of smart meters in Wales; 47,000 now have been installed in homes in South Wales Central. They're part of the solution. Obviously, as a more informed consumer, you can observe the impact of your energy consumption. Of course, when combined with better insulation, it can be a key factor in reducing energy poverty. So, I would like to know how the Welsh Government is itself, and with local authorities, ensuring that people are aware of the benefits of smart meters. Even though you are not directly responsible for the programme, information in the first place is really, really vital to consumers.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I agree that that is certainly the case. While it is a reserved issue, my officials are working with Smart Meter GB. They were obviouslyappointed by the UK Government to be the consumer campaign—to promote the take-up of smart meters in both domestic and non-domestic premises.
I think the one thing that I've learned from Smart Meter GB is that the large majority of people who have a meter then become really enthusiastic about making energy savings. That enthusiasm, hopefully, will carry on, so I think that's the thing that I've learned most from Smart Meter GB.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, smart meters can be a vital tool in changing behaviours, enabling us to put a price on that left-on light or to see how much it costs to leave a device on stand-by. However, older smart meters can tie customers into a single supplier as they are useless when switching to a new supplier, and customers often have to pay for a new smart meter to replace the dumb one. The UK Government have allowed energy companies to continue to install first-generation meters. So, Cabinet Secretary, what can your Government do to ensure that customers in Wales will only receive smart metering equipment technical specifications 2 meters?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, that's not an issue that has been raised with me, but I will certainly write to the UK Government pointing out your comments and ensuring that people in Wales do absolutely have the most up-to-date meter available.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

The Biomass UK No. 2 Development in Barry

Jane Hutt AC: 5. Will the Welsh Government carry out an environmental impact assessment following the decision by Natural Resources Wales to grant an operating licence for the Biomass UK No. 2 development in Barry? OAQ51760

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Welsh Ministers have informed the developer of the biomass plant that they are minded to direct that an environmental impact assessment must accompany their planning application currently before the Vale of Glamorgan Council. Any representations they will make will be taken into account before a final decision is made.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I welcome that. I think that is some progress, but do you also welcome, as I do, the statement yesterday from theFuture Generations Commissioner for Wales that she's considering how environmental permits are granted in Wales by Natural Resources Wales? She's written to NRW to ask them to demonstrate how theWell-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is being applied to the environmental permitting process. This will be welcomed by the residents of Barry and the Vale, who feel that their concerns and evidence on the public health and environmental impact of the Barry biomass incinerator, built in the middle of Barry, close to homes, schools, hospitals and shops, have been ignored in the granting of a permit.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you for that question. I appreciate the residents' and the Member's concerns, and I recognise the role the Member has played in being involved with making representations on this issue on behalf of her constituents.
In terms of the announcement by the future generations commissioner, our guidance in thewell-being of future generations Act makes it clear that the Act provides opportunities for public bodies to consider how duties can be discharged in a more integrated way. Public bodies, however, must be confident that their respective statutory duties are being met against the criteria in the relevant legislation.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I think it's fair to say that, in the time that I've been elected to this institution, from a Vale of Glamorgan perspective, the Barry incinerator has undoubtedly been the largest campaign, and across party political divides, I might add as well. I commend the community around the incinerator, and the wider Vale of Glamorgan community, for the actions they have undertaken to fight this campaign. But there is an issue about environmental impact assessments and their suitability. Have you had time, in the time you've been Minister, to get to grips with the scenarios where environmental impact assessments are required? Do you believe that the current model that public bodies in particular work to, such as NRW,is fit for purpose, bearing in mind, obviously, the future generations commissioner's comment? But, ultimately, it will be you as a Government who will determine the parameters for guidance to bodies were they to enact environmental impact assessments.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you for your question. I know, also, that the Member has been vociferous in this matter and has asked a number of questions previously on behalf of residents and constituents.
In terms of the environmental impact assessment, this refers to a specific process to comply with the EIAdirective, so that when the EIA is taken as part of a planning application, and acts as a consultee—[Inaudible.]—the environmental point is a matter forNatural Resources Wales, but it is something that will obviously be considered in the whole as well.

Hedgehogs

Joyce Watson AC: 6. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of The State of Britain's Hedgehogs Report 2018? OAQ51754

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The continued decline in hedgehog numbers in rural areas in the UK, as highlighted in the report, should concern us all. The findings will inform the refresh of the nature recovery action plan to ensure that we all take appropriate action to help our most endangered species, including the hedgehog.

Joyce Watson AC: I'm sure you will be aware that the Farmers Union of Wales released a statement in response to the report that said that conservation bodies were burying their heads in the sand as far as the impact ofbadgers on hedgehog numbers is concerned.I can't help but wonder if that isa politically motivated statement aimed at justifyinga badger cull. The FUW didn't feel that the lion's share of the blame for the reduction in hedgehog numbers should be placed on farming practices, despite a wealth of research showing that agriculture and land management have the biggest single impact on wildlife, with 84 per centof land in Wales being used for agriculture. Cabinet Secretary, can I ask for you to look at and assess the implications of this statement from the Farmers Union of Wales,which firmly blames badgers for the decline, and also to look at implementing the changes, as requested by conservation organisations,which clearly mention pesticides?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don't agree with the FUW claims.Certainly, when you read the report, I don't think that's what leaps out at you.When you read the report, it notes a number of reasons for why hedgehogs are scarcer in rural areas, and that includes the intensification of agriculture, habitat loss, fragmentation, roadkill, as well as predation. Badgers are a natural predator of hedgehogs, and they actively avoid sites where badgers are present in very high numbers. And I think also the report states that they can co-exist—you know, badgers and hedgehogs can co-exist in many areas.So, I think we need to have a better understanding of the habitat.

Nick Ramsay AC: Cabinet Secretary, I'm glad that Joyce Watson has asked this question. This is an excellent report; well worth the read. I learnt a few things, such as that hedgehogs are hibernating between November and mid-March, so we're currently in a period of that hibernation—what was that about AMs? [Laughter.] I was particularly interested in the Big Hedgehog Map, which allows people to log their hedgehog sighting online, to contribute to research into the animal. I noticed that, in Usk, in my constituency, there are only eight hedgehog sightings. So, hopefully, that will increase with this map.
I know that they get some national and European protection, but what are you doing to publicise campaigns such as the Big Hedgehog Map, so that we can understand a bit more about this animal and protected more in future?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it is very helpful. I haven't actuallypublicised this, so I, too, am very pleased that Joyce Watson has asked this question today.
I also think that reports such as this will help, postBrexit, when we're looking at our programmes and at how we're going to boost biodiversity, for instance. So, I'm very happy to support this report.

Lee Waters AC: As the hedgehog species champion, I welcome—[Interruption.]I'm very encouraged by the interest of other Members in our prickly friends. [Laughter.]
I was concerned to read in the report by the Hedgehog Preservation Society of the decline of hedgehogs in rural areas, particularly aligned to the use of pesticides. Would the Minister agree that the use of big data and artificial intelligence does offer us the opportunity to help in this area? By using the latest precision agriculture techniques, we can specifically calibrate the amount of chemicals required in the cultivation of land and reduce the amount of chemicals put into the soil, which will have a knock-on benefit effect for hedgehogs. Given that the National Assembly has voted for the Government to come forward with the strategy on precision agriculture, can the Minister update us on the progress, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Lee Waters is certainly the hedgehog champion. I hope you remember that you were actually the second choice, and I was the first, but I decided to be a champion for all species. [Laughter.] But you're also a great champion of precision agriculture, too, and frequently bombard me with a lot of very good research that you've done in this area.
We came forward with an idea that we wouldn't have a specific strategy, but there is clearly a huge amount of work that we can do in relation to precision agriculture, and certainly our policy is to reduce to the lowest possible level the effect of pesticide use on people, wildlife and plants, so I think precision agriculture absolutely can be used in this way. Again, post Brexit, as we're coming forward with our future farming policy and all our other environmental policies, I think precision agriculture will really help us.

Mick Antoniw AC: Cabinet Secretary, the facts in the report are very, very clear, and that is things like habitat loss and intensive farming are the primary cause of the fall. Incidentally, my species is the Tonyrefail falcon—that's another matter.
Could I just say—? One of the things that concerns me, though, that arises from the FUW statement, is the fact that there's an attempt to almost weaponise hedgehogs to make them to blame for their losses as a result of badgers; so, using one species as a mechanism for trying to attack another species, and so on, and our position has got to lead to a cull of badgers and also to the protection of hedgehogs themselves. This sort of divide-and-rule approach is really just not acceptable.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I think I've more or less answered your question in my answer to Joyce Watson. Clearly, the report, I think, states very clearly why hedgehogs are scarcer in rural areas, and it's not just due to one particular reason. I gave several reasons around habitat loss, the intensification of agriculture, for instance, and also road kill. So, I think it is very important that everybody looks at this report as a whole, and certainly I do disagree with what the FUW have claimed here.

The Agri-food Sector in North Wales

Mandy Jones AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the agri-food sector in North Wales? OAQ51751

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The agri-food sector in north Wales continues to grow and benefit significantly from a suite of Welsh Government programmes, including Farming Connect and food business investment grants. I was pleased to announce £3 million of funding for Food Skills Cymru at the food and drink skills conference in north Wales last Thursday.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you for your answer. Cabinet Secretary, according to the latest statistics, only 5 per cent of Welsh lamb is consumed in Wales. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote Welsh lamb in Wales and the wider UK?

Lesley Griffiths AC: There's a great deal we're doing to promote Welsh lamb. So, I've had conversations with specific supermarkets, for instance. So, just in recent months—probably the last six months—several supermarkets, including Asda and Aldi, have begun selling Welsh lamb. Other supermarkets already did so, and certainly in the lead-up to St David's Day, I think we'll see further supermarkets ensuring that Welsh lamb is on their shelves.

Mark Isherwood AC: Significant opportunities exist for the agri-food sector in north Wales, including improved supply chain collaboration and associated efficiency improvements. In fact, the brand Wales encapsulates premium fresh produce backed up by great taste, the quality of Welsh grassland, the family farm tradition, the commitment of all in the supply chain and the location of abattoirs and processing facilities close to production. What meetings and how many meetings have you had with representatives, not just of farmers, but processors and retailers, given the importance of engaging with operators in the entire supply chain in relation to these matters?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I've had a significant number of meetings right across the food chain—as you say, not just with farmers, but with processors and with specific supply chain companies. My officials continue to have those sorts of meetings on a weekly basis, and I mentioned in my opening answer to Mandy Jones about the food business investment scheme—that grant funding, again, supports people in this area.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I saw some recent reports that the red meat levy organisations in Britain were going to be sharing a fund of £2 million for marketing and research while a longer term solution to this saga of the red meat levy is resolved—at last, hopefully.I want to knowbecause I have been raising this issue for many years. I’m sure you’re the fifth or the sixth Minister or Cabinet Secretary who’s been grappling with this injustice of the £1 million lost to the red meat sector annually because of the way that the levy is being run. So, when do you think, if this is a temporary measure, that we will have a once-and-for-all resolution to this injustice? And when, at last, will we see the red meat sector in Wales given the funding it deserves?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, it is something that we do need to have a permanent solution on. I'm hoping that the temporary one becomes permanent very, very quickly—hopefully within the next few months. You mentioned I was probably the—I think I am the sixth Minister with responsibility, and I promised Dai Davies, before he finished as chair, that we would get it sorted out. We managed on a temporary basis, but you're quite right, it is something that has been too long in the ether out there that needs sorting out. So, I will continue to have discussions with other Ministers around this and I know my officials continue to have meetings at an officiallevel too.

Research on Sea Beds

Mark Isherwood AC: 8. What opportunities has the Welsh Government had to research sea beds off the coast of Wales? OAQ51737

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Welsh Government undertakes and supports a wide range of work to understand Welsh seas, including the sea bed. I've seen at first hand the excellent academic work at Aberystwyth and Bangor universities in particular. We continue to develop a good understanding of our seas to enable sustainable development.

Mark Isherwood AC: Sea bed surveying and mapping are of key importance to our economy. The Irish have already acted on this. The EU is now starting too. There's a danger that both Wales and the UK will be left behind. Bangor University has the biggest university-run sea bed researchvessel in the UK, the Prince Madog, which is key both to our economy and to fisheries management as we look to the future. But, it's only funded to 2020. What action will the Welsh Government therefore take to ensure critical and sustainablefuture funding, and to incorporate sea bed researchinto a strategic national plan?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I am aware that Bangor University are looking to identify future strategic scientific work for the Prince Madog. It is a commercial matter for the universitiesand others in the consortium, so I'm not able to comment any further.

Dai Lloyd AC: As species champion for the grey seals, all the talk on Rhossili rocks is about NRW's recent indicative marine protected areas site condition reports. These apparently have highlighted low confidence in determining the status of protected features such as sub-tidal reefs, with some reported as being in unfavourable conservation status. So, in view of that, will the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the extra allocated budget to the marine and fisheries department will be used for the recovery and much needed monitoring of marine protected areas in Wales, and keep my grey seals happy? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I very much want to keep Dai Lloyd's grey seals happy. I can't confirm that all the funding will be used for that purpose, but I'm sure that some of the funding will go towards understanding our seas and, of course, the marine protected areas, which are very important.

Simon Thomas AC: You will know, Cabinet Secretary, that the decision to reopen the scallop fishery in Cardigan bay was very much predicated on the work that Bangor University had done on the sea bed conditions, and you said at the time, I think, that you'd want to maintain an ongoing monitoring of sea bed conditions to ensure that reopeningthe fishery didn't have an adverse effect and that it was, as you just said, sustainabledevelopment of our sea beds and seas. Can you update us on the position now as regards that fishery and, in light of the earlier questionI asked about shellfish generally in Welsh seas, where we are in ensuring that that fishery can be sustainableand meets the needs of the natural environmentas well?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I mentioned in an earlier answer, it wasn't to you, that I'd met with the Welsh fisheriesassociation this morningon the subject of monitoring, and on the basis that you can't please all the people all the time you can imagine that the view was coming from a differentside. That monitoring is ongoing, but if the Member is happy, I will writeto him with the specific situation at the current time.

Community Access to Green Spaces

Vikki Howells AC: 9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve community access to green spaces? OAQ51743

Hannah Blythyn AC: Quality green spaces and parks provide opportunities for healthy recreation, support biodiversity and contribute to reducing flood risk and air pollution. The Welsh Government has allocated £27.8 million of capital funding from 2017 to support the development of green infrastructure over a period of four years.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I was really glad that you could speak at the event on community spaces that I hosted the other week. The event heardhow access to community green spaces can help to improve health, well-being and prosperity, although it also noted some of the barriers to community ownership. What support can the Welsh Government give to make it easier for communities to not only access but take legal ownership of green spaces?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I was grateful for the opportunity to join you at the event, and it was good to hear from you then. One of the things that struck me at the event that we talked about was the emotional ownership of your local green spaces, but then how that actually becomes actual ownership. And you're right that access to green spaces has broader health, economic and social benefits; it's not just good for the environment. So, community asset transfer presents opportunities for the community to own and manage green spaces. Welsh Government guidance is available to provide community groups with the knowledge and tools to take ownership of these spaces, and there's information available on the Welsh Government website. The green infrastructure capital fund that is currently being put into place will actually be able to assist and support community groups in taking ownership of green spaces.

David Melding AC: Minister, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health recommends more 20 mph zones around green spaces so that children can walk, cycle and play safely, and also access those spaces more safely. I'm particularly concerned about the lack of access to green spaces for children who live in relatively more deprived areas. We need an action plan to ensure that children do have access to safe playing grounds.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Absolutely. The Member makes very important and very valid points. Green spaces are also not just about safety; green spaces help to reduce air and noise pollution as well. I think we are cracking forward with our air quality strategy at the moment, so that's perhaps something we could take up further and consider going forward.

'Planning Policy Wales'

Hefin David AC: 10. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Planning Policy Wales? OAQ51767

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. On Monday, I launched a public consultation on a completely revised draft 'Planning Policy Wales', which has been aligned to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 goals and ways of working. I look forward to hearing Members and others' views on the document and the contribution it can make to place making.

Hefin David AC: And I welcome that review alongside the question David Rowlands asked at the beginning. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of my support for strategic development planning, which is provided within the Planning (Wales) Act 2015, to help move developments away from over-concentrated areas around Cardiff and the M4. Will the Cabinet Secretary therefore support the view that 'Planning Policy Wales' needs to reflect the suitability of strategic development plans over local development plans, and that local authorities' elected representatives within the areas covered by strategic development plans need to work together and show their support for more dispersed sustainable development that is in line with the well-being of future generations Act?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I know the Member will be aware from our conversations that I'm very keen to see strategic development plans. I wrote to all local authorities back in December, inviting them to look at how they can work together on SDPs. I've had some responses, and around joint development plans also, although not everybody has written back yet. I have also reminded them of the need to increase housing supply, and emphasised that new housing must contribute to the creation of cohesive communities. We don't want to see unacceptable impacts on social, economic or environmental infrastructure.

Angela Burns.

Angela Burns AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, may I apologise both to you and to the Cabinet Secretary for missing my earlier question?
Cabinet Secretary, as the species champion for the greater horseshoe bat, can you assure me that in this consultation on the new planning policy for Wales there will be adequate weight given to protecting endangered species whilst, of course, not stopping necessary planning and the renovation of old buildings? But, we do need to look after our smaller friends; they have no voice—we need to be their voice.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely, I agree with that and just to say to the Member that I thank her for her apology; it was actually a question to the Minister for Environment.

Siân Gwenllian AC: 'Planning Policy Wales' in its draft form noted the concept of sustainable development has been broadened, of course, under the well-being of future generations Act, and there is now a requirement to improve the four aspects of well-being—economic, environmental, social and cultural. There are also seven well-being goals that the Act has brought forward to help to ensure that public bodies are working towards the same vision of a sustainable Wales. The Welsh language is one of those seven well-being goals under the Act, and is also part of the cultural aspect of well-being. Why, then, doesn’t the draft planning policy of the Welsh Government strengthen the responsibilities of local planning authorities as they consider the Welsh language as part of their planning decision making?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Member will be aware that we looked at the technical advice note that was specifically in relation to the Welsh language and strengthened it, but I'm very happy to take on any comments that she has on it—if you feel it wasn't strengthened in a way that you think is appropriate—as we go through this planning policy consultation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance

The next questions are to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, and the first question is from Russell George.

Welsh Government Offices

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the future of Welsh Government offices located outside of Cardiff? OAQ51738

Mark Drakeford AC: The Government’s location strategy maintains our commitment to a Welsh Government presence across Wales while ensuring that we optimise the efficiency of our estate and reduce our operating costs and environmental impacts.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.The Welsh Government have always had offices, since its creation, in my constituency, and there has been some concern in the past thatWelsh Government plans to scale back on its commitment to basing Welsh Government staff in Newtown. In 2015, the then Permanent Secretary, Sir Derek Jones, confirmed to me that the Welsh Government is committed to a long-term presence in Newtown, beyond March 2020. Now, there have been some developments since, and the building that was previously owned at that time has been sold. Are you able to provide an assurance that this is still the case?

Mark Drakeford AC: What I have to tell the Member is this, that, at times when budgets are under very significant pressure, we have to continually review the estate that the Welsh Government occupies. We occupied 75 properties in 2010, and we occupy 28 properties now, and that has released significant savings, which allows us to invest in public services. We remain committed, however, to a well-dispersed, interconnected and accessible presence for the Welsh Government right across Wales.

Siân Gwenllian AC: The Welsh Government offices in Caernarfon are for sale, with the staff moving from the site to a leasedsite. Caernarfon has seen the loss of far more Welsh Government staff than the national average over the years.What I don't understand is how reducing the number of staff in an area such asCaernarfon is contributing to the economic development plans of the Government, a model of economic development, and I quote,'whichfocuses on regions in order to tackle regional inequalities in terms of wealth and opportunities across Wales.'This week again, Plaid Cymru has published evidence that the south-east region is given three times as much capital investment per capita by the Welsh Government compared to some other regions—and that's evidence based on information gathered from your own Government.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Membercontinues, absolutely properly, to championthe cause of Caernarfon in relation to the Welsh Government's presence there. I'm able to offer her a guarantee that the current changes in Welsh Government presence in Caernarfon is not a move fromCaernarfon.It is simply a relocation to alternative new accommodation in the town at Caernarfondock, and the Welsh Government intends to continueits commitment to its presence in the town.

Wales's Future Relationship with the EU

Dawn Bowden AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on recent intergovernmental discussions about Wales's future relationship with the EU? OAQ51758

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. Recent meetings of the Joint Ministerial Committee on European Union negotiations have been more constructive than hitherto. The machinery remains, however, defective in both design and delivery. Further steps are needed to ensure that Welsh interests are taken into account in shaping any future relationship with the European Union.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Perhaps I should more usefully have asked about theinternal workings of the UK Government, because as far as I can see they can't agree amongst themselves at the moment on the nature of our future relationship with the EU, so it's really hard to see how they can talk sensibly to the devolved nations about it. We've heard several times, Cabinet Secretary, that the clock is now ticking on the EU negotiations, and I fear that time is now against us if we're to deliver the best deal for Wales and the UK. Given that the Joint Ministerial Committee has not met since December and is not providing a mechanism for the serious engagementthat is required on these issues, and in light of the recently published national, regional and sector analyses, which I'm hoping to get over and see at some time this afternoon, do you agree that it is imperative that the UK Government now get their act together if the devolved nations are to have a proper opportunity to plan for the consequences of these negotiations with the European Union?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd,I entirely agree with the Member that the really challenging issues that are there in negotiating the UK's future beyond the European Unionare not helped by the inability of the UK Government to organise itself in a purposeful and reliable way. When the JMC on European negotiations next meets, it will have its fifth chair in the 15 months in which it has been in operation. It is no wonder that we have not met since December when we have yet another change in personnel at the head of that body. So, dealing with the UK Government is immensely frustrating in the way that they struggle to provide a coherent single voice that represents their views on these things, and then to provide practical leadership of the sort that will be needed as the UK leaves the European Union. The Welsh Government continues to take every opportunity that we can, nonetheless, to play a constructive part in every forum to which we are invited and at every encounter that we have with the UK Government.

Andrew RT Davies AC: One thing we know, Cabinet Secretary, is that the footprint of diplomatic activity across the European Union will change from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and they are resourcing their footprint to a greater degree. Obviously, it's vital that that new footprint does recognise the devolved context that the United Kingdom operates under, and I'd be grateful to understand what interaction his department has had with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to make sure that Wales's representative role within that new footprint of representation, diplomatically, is recognised and is as strong as possible?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd,the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is represented from time to time at the JMC on European negotiations, and is normally represented at the JMC on Europe. That does provide us with an opportunity to discuss directly with UK Ministers the way in which diplomatic representation will be organised the other side of Brexit. We take every opportunity we have to impress on those representatives the need for a UK presence to be genuinely representative of the whole of the United Kingdom, and regularly make offers of assistance to the UK Government to make sure that, when it is speaking on behalf of the United Kingdom, it is well informed about Welsh interests and opportunities that there will be there for Wales in the newpost-Brexit era.

Leanne Wood AC: There have been indications from the UK Government that it may be prepared to reverse its approach to the BrexitBill after legitimate concerns were raised about a Westminster power grab that would undermine devolution and pose a constitutional crisis. Now, this mooted u-turn from the Westminster Government is welcomed by Plaid Cymru. However, we see time and time again that Westminster cannot be trusted to deliver on its promises. Can you confirm if you've had any indications of such a policy reversal and, furthermore, can you tell us how you intend to hold them to their word, and if you have a plan B should they renege on their promises?

Mark Drakeford AC: I entirely agree with Leanne Wood that we must have more than warm words from the UK Government on this matter. We have to make sure that they act on the promises that they have made, and she is quite right to say that they have made very explicit promises in this area. The Secretary of State for Scotland said on the floor of the House of Commons that the UK Government would come forward with amendments to put right the problems in the withdrawal Bill at Report Stage in the House of Commons, and that did not happen. We have had further repetitions of that promise, however, on paper and orally, that this will now happen at the House of Lords.
The Welsh Government will pursue a twin-track approach here. We will work with our colleagues in the Scottish Government where we have opportunities inside the discussions with UK Government to press them to come forward with an amendment that we could support and that could lead to a legislative consent motion being laid in front of the National Assembly. But we are yet to see any text that would give us comfortthat that is to be produced, and, while it isn't available to us, we will pursue amendments at the House of Lords. It was very good to see Lord Dafydd Wigley at a briefing session that the Welsh and Scottish Governments jointly ran in the House of Lords two weeks ago. There was a considerable interest, Llywydd, amongst peers of all parties and crossbenchers, in the case that we were jointly able to make about the defective nature of the withdrawal Bill and why it will need to be amended. If we can't get an agreed amendment with the UK Government, we will pursue our own amendment in the House of Lords, and we will seek to defeat the Government so that we can amend the Bill in the way that is necessary.

Jack Sargeant AC: Cabinet Secretary, inter-governmental discussions are obviously vital if we're going to get the best deal for Wales, particularly to industry. You will know that my home constituency is home to Deeside enterprise zone, and is the home of many companies, including Airbus and Toyota. My constituents rely on many companies like this, and those like Tata Steel, for their livelihoods and their children's livelihoods. Having worked on the Deeside industrial estate myself, I know how important it is too. Can the Cabinet Secretary reassure me that all efforts are being made by this Government to ensure that the UK Government delivers the best deal for my area and the industries that we rely on?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank the Member for that supplementary question—the first, I'm sure, of many in which he will represent the vital interests of his constituency? And he's absolutely right to point to the fact that Deeside has a whole series of major industries that rely on our membership of the European Union for their success and current way of operating. So, we press, as we always do upon the UK Government, the vital need for full and unfettered access to the single market, so that Airbus, for example, which relies on the ability to move goods across the European Union in a tariff-free way, is not impeded in its ability in the future and does not lead, as a result, to questions being raised about whether investment in Wales is the best place for that company to see its future. Not only does Airbus rely on the free movement of goods, but it relies heavily on the free movement of people—the ability of people who operate across the footprint of that company to move in and out of Wales in pursuit of the company's business. We make these points regularly and specifically to UK Ministers, and it's very good to have the support of the Member this afternoon in the efforts that we make to do so.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the partyspokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. According to the 'Wales procurement policy statement', public procurement, when used effectively, is
'a strategic tool to deliver economic benefit to the people of Wales.'
It’s no surprise, therefore, that the Government, as you note in your economic strategy ‘Prosperity for All’, published just recently, is endeavouring to increase the level of Welsh purchasing in the public sector in order to create jobs and help businesses in Wales. So, may I ask whether the percentage of Welsh purchasing in the public sector that you’re directly responsible for is increasing or decreasing?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, in general, it’s increasing, Llywydd.

Adam Price AC: Well, I can tell the Cabinet Secretary that’s not the case and it’s going down. In 2015-16, in that financial year, 41 per cent of health service procurement was made in Wales, according to your statistics, but, by the following year, the percentage had fallen to 39 per cent. In response to an inquiry by the Public Accounts Committee recently, the Welsh Government stated that you were trying to lead by example. But, since 2015-16, the percentage of Welsh purchasing by the Welsh Government itself has fallen from 44 per cent to 41 per cent in that year—the most recent year. So, can the Welsh Government set a specific target for the level of Welsh procurement by the Welsh Government and the health service, and put it, for example, on an equal level with local government, which is succeeding in reaching a level of 59 per cent of expenditure remaining in Wales? If you were to do that, that would lead, immediately,to an additional £400 million of expenditure through businesses in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me say this to the Member, Llywydd: there's no difference at all between us in an ambition to see the percentage of public procurement spend in Wales that goes to Welsh companies grow and to grow across the different opportunities that there are there.We are reviewing the future of procurement policy in Wales, particularly in the light of Brexit, to see whether there will be more opportunities to do that in the future. I'm perfectly happy to ask the group of people who are charged with that responsibility, and the stakeholder group that is assisting them, to take a view on whether targets would assist in that process. They have a part to play, potentially, but they can be distorting, we know, as well. So, I'd want to make sure that the idea was thoroughly considered. If the conclusion were that it is a useful way of improving the position, then that is exactly what we are trying to do, so I would, of course, take that advice very seriously.

Adam Price AC: Well, I would suggest that it would be at least beneficial to have a target so that the level increases, rather than decreases, as is happening at the moment.
Let's turn to another question that Siân Gwenllian alluded to, namely the level of regional investment. In 'Prosperity for All', the Government outlines its aspiration to ensure that every part of Wales benefits from investment and economic growth, but the figures published recently by yourselves demonstrate that spending per capita on infrastructure, for example, next year in south-east Wales is going to be twice as much as it is in north Wales and three times as much per capita as mid and west Wales. This inequality is disgraceful. It is entirely contrary to the claimed strategy of 'Prosperity for All'. Perhaps that should be renamed in light of this information. Now, would the Government commit to ensuring that the remit letter of the national infrastructure commission for Wales includes a commitment to ensuring more equal investment by the Welsh Government across Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, geography is not the determining principle of our capital programme. The determining principle is best value for the investments that we make, and best-value investments happen right across Wales and the proportions of capital spend in different parts of Wales change over time, as different projects come to the fore. No part of Wales is left out of our capital programme and we will continue to invest right across Wales, but not on the basis of geography, not on the basis of saying that everybody must have the same level of investment, because different parts of Wales have different sorts of needs, and these will change over time, and it is much more important to align capital spend with need and best value than it is with a simplistic appeal to geography.

Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I refer the Cabinet Secretary to the questions already asked by the previous Member. That's the problem with coming second, isn't it, but there we are—not politically, that is, I mean in the order today.
Cabinet Secretary, procurement is clearlyon the lips of most Assembly Members in the wake of the collapse of Carillion, and that clearly affected services and projects across the UK, but also, to a lesser extent, in Wales. The outsourcing firm Capita have also announced that they are in some financial difficulty. What assessment have you made of the Welsh Government's dealings with Capita in terms of theextent of the contracts with them and your assessment of the risk posed by those agreements?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we work carefully with the UK Government in relation both to Carillion and Capita. The UK Government confirmed that they're not standing up a team with Capita in the way that they did with Carillion, but that they continue to monitor Capita very closely, and the Cabinet Office are heavily engaged with Capita in addressing some of the underlying issues that that company faces. We have produced an overview of spend and services delivered by Capita in Wales, and we've shared that with the Cabinet Office in order thatthe efforts that the UK Government are making in this area can be fully informed about the needs of Wales.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I asked a number of written questions to the Welsh Government—some to yourself, some to the economy and transport Secretary. And, as I understand it, the Welsh Government has signed five contracts with Capita for the delivery of services in Wales. I further understand that there hasn't been any substantive discussions with Capita within the last six months. Do you think it would be wise for the Welsh Government to engage a little bit more with Capita at this point? I appreciate there's a UK dimension to this as well—but just to make sure that risk is mitigated as much as possible.

Mark Drakeford AC: I can assure the Member that action is happening within the Welsh Government to make sure that any exposure in Wales to Capita is fully understood, and that where discussions directly with the company would be helpful in managing through the position that they face, then we would certainly be open to do that. Capita is not in the same position as Carillion, as far as we are aware, and it's important that we conduct our relationships with them in a way that doesn't give rise to undue alarm that wouldn't bemerited by the facts.

Nick Ramsay AC: I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary for his answer to that. In asking the question, I'm aware that there are big differences, but nonetheless these areas, I think, do need to be scrutinised. Adam Price has already mentioned the Wales Audit Office criticism of recent procurement procedures. Their remit is here, clearly, but there have been faults with procurement procedures across the UK as well. I think in answer to your earlier question to Adam you mentioned the ongoing review. Could you provide us any more details about that review, the extent of it, when you expect it to report, and potential alterations that could be made, so that we do make sure that the Welsh Government procurement procedures are as watertight as possible?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the review is well under way. I expect it to conclude during this calendar year, as well as the work that is being carried out inside the Welsh Government on the review. It will be overseen by a stakeholder group, which will have a significant impact on it, and that stakeholder group will include those organisations that are the major users of the National Procurement Service. But I also fully expect that the review will take into account the Wales Audit Office reports into public procurement and the National Procurement Service, and I welcome as well the Public Accounts Committee's inquiry into procurement in Wales. And I, again, expect that the conclusionsthat that inquiry comes to will be part of the material that the review will draw on in coming to its conclusions.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: I fully endorse what the Cabinet Secretary earlier on said in criticism of the UK Government and the confusion that seems to reign in the Cabinet on its Brexit policy, largely due to the activities of diehard remainers like the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who seems to be regularly trying to undermine the whole process. But, of course, the Welsh Government could assist in getting the best possible outcome from these Brexit negotiations if it was prepared to recognise that the best way to avoid a 'no deal' is to prepare for it, and to make it clear that we can cope with the consequences. The Cabinet Secretary will be well aware of the report of the external affairs committee published recently, which made a number of recommendations. In particular, it said that Wales needs
'a stronger steer from the Welsh Government about how they should be preparing for Brexit'
and that sectors and organisations are looking to the Welsh Government for leadership, and it's imperative they're able to start making their own plans for life outside the EU. This has been expressed in as non-partisan a way as possible. And I'm trying to do that myself in this question—to encourage and urge the Welsh Government to take an optimistic view of the outcome beyond Brexit. Even if there is no deal, there are opportunities there, as well as challenges, and those should be pointed up rather than constantly harping upon about the negatives.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, even in trying to respond to the tone in which that question was raised, I can't avoid saying to the Member that I fundamentally disagree with what he has said. A 'no deal' outcome from Brexit will be catastrophic for Wales, and there is no preparation for no deal. And one of the reasons that I always say that is that it's really important to resist the notion that no deal is just simply one other eventuality that you can prepare for. The normalisation of no dealis in nobody's best interest here in Wales. So, the Welsh Government will continue to prepare for all the different possible outcomes of negotiation. Whenever I speak to UK Ministers, they absolutely emphasise to me that no deal is not what they are seeking to bring about, and I fully support them in that ambition.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, the Cabinet Secretary knows that the British Government is doing its best to achieve a deal with the EU. The only people who are playing hard to get in this are the European Commission themselves. This is an essential part of Monsieur Barnier's negotiating strategy, and the kind of response that the Cabinet Secretary has just given to me is music to the ears of Michel Barnier. That's exactlywhat he's looking for people in this country to say—to indicate that, therefore, the pressure will be on to do what the EU wants rather than what the British Government wants. Yes, of course, we want a free trade deal with the EU; we would be mad not to and everybody with any common sense is pressing towards that. But constantly saying, 'Whatthe EU wants out of this' is not going to help us in our negotiatingposition. So, I urge the Cabinet Secretary, yet again, on behalf of the Welsh Government, not just to concentrate on the negatives that will happen if there is no deal, because if there is no deal, that won't be because of the efforts of the British Government, it will be becausethe EU has put its own political priorities before economic common sense.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I've lost count of the number of times in the Chamber that I've heard the Member assure us that a deal would be the easiest thing in the world to bring off because German car manufacturers and everybody else in the European Union would be so desperate to do a deal that it would be brought off with hardly any effort at all. I find it very difficult to square his views in that regard with his suggestion this afternoon that somehow the Commission is hell-bent on not reaching a deal. We won't get a deal if we regard the Commission and the European Union as somehow our enemies in all of this. There is a shared interest in getting a deal, and getting the best deal, and the Welsh Government has set out what we believe the best deal would be. And simply assuming that we are pitched against one another, in which a good outcome for one is a bad outcome for the other, is not, I believe, the way in which the best interests of Wales will be secured.

Neil Hamilton AC: The Cabinet Secretary knows that I don't see this as a zero-sum game where Britain benefits at the expense of theEU. I've always made it clear that a free trade deal is in the interests of both parties, and actually, is much more in theinterests of the EU, in a sense, than it is to the UK becausewe have a massive deficit of about £80 billion a year in trade with theEU. And as regards German car manufacturers, we have a deficit on trade of€36 billion with Germany. Of course, it's massively in the interest of German car manufacturers for us to do a deal with them, because we buy one in seven of all the passenger cars that are manufactured in Germany. But if the Cabinet Secretary persists in saying 'Oh, well, we need to give in to everything that the EU demands of us in order to get a free trade deal', that is the best way to ensure that we don't get one.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I reject the language of giving in and the approach that the Member suggests. The Welsh Government has articulatedthe sort of deal that we believe is in the best interests of people and businesses in Wales: a deal in which we have full and unfettered access to the single market, in which we will remain in a customs union, in which Welsh businesses, Welsh public services and Welsh research institutionsare able to go on recruiting people who we've been lucky enoughto attract to come and make their futures here in Wales, in which Welsh citizens continue to enjoy the protections that they have gained through the European Union, as citizens, as workers, as consumers, and in human rights too. There is a positive view of the sort of deal that we need with the European Union, which we believe, the other side of the European Union, would allow Welsh businesses and Welsh jobs to go on thriving. That's the sort of language that I think best assists us in trying to make an influence on the UK Government and on the Commission in the conduct of these very, very importantnegotiations.

Electricity Infrastructure in Ynys Môn

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the role of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 in developing electricity infrastructure in Ynys Môn? OAQ51763

Mark Drakeford AC: May I thank the Member very much for the question? This Act ensures that public bodies in Wales take account of our long-term well-being. 'Planning Policy Wales' is to be revised in light of the Act. It will be a material consideration for decisions made by the Secretary of State in electricity infrastructure matters.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. You refer to public bodies in Wales and the duties placed upon them, but, of course, there are other bodies that are public, or quasi-public, or have links to the public sector and operate in Wales and have a real impact on us. The National Grid intends to build a new electricity connection across Anglesey with the cost beingthe main, if not the only, factor in deciding what kind of connection that will be. What they intend to do, therefore, is to go for the cheapest possible option, which is pylons above ground rather than undergrounding, or placing cables underwater, which is what we in Anglesey would want to see. Going underwater or underground would safeguard the interests of Ynys Môn now and for future generations, and we do have a Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 here in Wales. Now, you're the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for the implementation of that Act. Are you willing to give a commitment that you will work with me and others as campaigners against pylons to urge the National Grid, Ofgem and the UK Government, who will ultimately make the decision, to ensure that this connection plan can only happen in accordance with the principles of this important piece of legislation passed in this place?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Rhun ap Iorwerth, for what you said. I know of the work that you have done in the context of the island on this issue. We as a Government are working more closely with the local councils on the issues that he has alluded to. Now, I was pleased to see the statement from the National Grid. So, they have made a statement on well-being, where they state, in the context of the Act,

Mark Drakeford AC: 'While these do not specifically place requirements on the National Grid or the development of new transmission lines, National Grid believes that the aims of the Act are important and deserve consideration.'
So, there is some recognition there by the National Grid of the impact of the Act. The Act is binding as far as the local council is concerned. The Secretary of State will be influenced by it. I hear, of course, what the Member says about undergrounding and overgrounding, and the Welsh Government's starting position is that undergrounding is the preferred option, but there will be discussions that will be needed, and the local authority and Welsh Government will be involved in them as we seek to maximise the benefits for the island while mitigating the impacts of these developments.

Mark Isherwood AC: Last Thursday, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee visited the Anglesey enterprise zone board and we metrepresentatives of the board—Anglesey council, Menter Môn, third sector, businesses and education—and they told us how important the significant electricity transmission infrastructure is not only to the development of Wylfa Newydd, the new nuclear power station, but to the Holyheadport expansion, proposals for new offshore tidal power, and so on. What engagement, therefore, are you having with the board of Anglesey enterprise zone to take advice on sustainable electricity transport infrastructure in the future, and how will you ensure that those communication channels remain open in the future following this morning's announcement thatAnglesey's enterprise zone board is to be merged with that of Snowdonia?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, these matters are, essentially, for my colleague Ken Skates, rather than for me as finance Minister, but I agree with what the Member said about the needfor an efficient and reliable electricity infrastructure, not simply for the Wylfa Newydd development, but for the broader agenda that is there for Anglesey as an energy island. I can give him an assurance that officials of the Welsh Government are in very regular contact with the essential interests in the island on this matter and I'll make sure that his question to me is drawn to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport.

The EU Transition Fund

Jane Hutt AC: 4. Will the Cabinet Secretary clarify the terms and conditions for the £50 million EU transition fund? OAQ51762

Mark Drakeford AC: We are developing the detailed operation of the EU transition fund in partnership with Welsh businesses, public services and other key organisations, to help them prepare for Brexit. Discussions of potential terms and conditions of the fund formed a major agenda item at last week’s meeting of the European advisory group.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I welcome that response, Cabinet Secretary. I also welcome the Welsh Government's proactive engagement in securing Wales's future, not just with the announcement of the £50 million EU transition fund, but also the regional investment and trade issues plans. I'm also very pleased to be part of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, which provides constructive scrutiny of the Welsh and UK Governments in the Brexit negotiations. But I have to say, last week, I asked, in my capacity as a member of that committee, to have sight of the so-called leaked document on the impact of Brexit on the economy. We were asked to go to a separate UK Government building, not on the Assembly estate, and book an appointment from a selection of very limited and specific time slots in order to enter a guarded reading room. I understand that the Brexit committees in the Houses of Parliament have full access to this report. This cannot be right. Extensions to this week are neither acceptable nor convenient. I'm squeezing in a time tomorrow, which is going to be extremely inconvenient. The report should be made public not just for us, but for our constituents and our stakeholders.
But what's more important is what the report says, and I do understand that this official analysis by the UK Government shows that Wales would suffer a 9.5 per cent hit togross domestic product if the UK leaves the EU without an exit deal. Furthermore, the study also reveals that Wales would see a 5.5 per cent reduction in GDP even if the UK leaves with a free trade deal, and that there would still be a 1.5 per cent reduction if the country stayed in the single market. The predicted losses are understood to cover a 15-year period. So, given these low-growth scenarios and also current uncertainties about the terms of a transition period, has this had an impact on your planning and arrangements for the Welsh Government EU transition fund?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for what she's had to say. We had earlier questions this afternoon, Llywydd, about the way in which the UK Government organises itself around the Brexit matter. The sorry story of access for Members to the so-called leaked reports would have disgracedClochemerle,let alone a UK Government. I share the view of Anna Soubry,myself. [Interruption.] I share the view of Anna Soubry—that Conservative Member of Parliament who described the UK Government's performance on this issue as farcical. It treats the Parliament and this Assembly, and the Scottish Parliament, as though we belonged in the nineteenth century. We are taken to locked rooms to look at documents that we can't even take notes on, while members of the public are reading it on the internet. It's entirely farcical and it's disrespectful, and it does not add to confidence that the UK Government is capable of discharging these responsibilities.

Mark Reckless AC: Llywydd, may I apologise for the discourtesy of having missed a question in the previous session?
I'm not sure whether the Cabinet Secretary has been with David Melding and Jane Hutt to read these reports, but he may also be able to tell us whether the report about leaks or otherwise on the reshuffle will be published, given his new commitment to openness and transparency in public life. Can I also ask him, when he considers these reports from the UK Government, will he consider that the forecasters who have written these extraordinary large estimates of potential output loss are, in the main, the same ones who said there would be an immediate recession if we voted on 23 June to leave, and there would be 0.5 million job losses across the UK when, actually, there have been 0.5 million new jobs?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I'll make two points, Llywydd. The first is that the people who made these estimates are the people that the UK Government chose to make these estimates. They're not some group of people who simply set themselves up for the purpose. They are the people that your Government decided were the best-placed people to give them this advice. Of course, when they come up with advice that doesn't suit you, you think the easiest thing to do is to rubbish the people who provided it.
The second point I would make to the Member is this: that the trade policy that the Welsh Government published recently also contains estimatesof the impact on the Welsh economy of different ways in which we might leave the European Union, and there is a remarkable coincidence between the figures that the people who have advised us in producing that report came to and those the people who advised the UK Government came to too. Just because we don't like the figures, I don't think we can simply dismissthem because they don't suit the view of the world that we happen to take.

The Landfill Disposals Tax

Joyce Watson AC: 5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the implementation of the landfill disposals tax? OAQ51740

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. Agreement has been reached with the UK Government that landfill disposals tax will go live on 1 April this year. A number of landfill sites have already applied to register with the Welsh Revenue Authority, and feedback on the registration process and the guidance produced by the authority has been positive.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that answer. There does seem to be a real opportunity here to use this as a really good scheme that will hopefully go some way to offsettingsome of the potential negative impacts on communities that live within a five-mile radius of landfill sites. But there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of information available beyond the fact that the WCVA, the Welsh Council for Voluntary Action, will be administering it. So, is it your intention, or the intention of the WCVA, to let communities and organisations know how they can actually first of all understand the scheme and then apply for any assistance that those communities can benefit from, in accordance with this landfill tax?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank the Member for drawing attention for the communities scheme in the landfill disposals tax? It is a very important part of the way we are doing things in Wales, and members of the Finance Committee took a particularly keen interest in it. The fact that we have a five-mile zone that now includes waste transfer stations, as well as landfill sites, was one of the changes that was made to the scheme. Our colleague Mike Hedges was particularly influential in advocating that, and Joyce Watson will be particularly glad, I know, to know that that means that there are now 16 waste transfer stations in her region, where communities will be able to benefit from the scheme who previously had no benefit from it at all. The WCVA has been selected as the body that will oversee the scheme. We expect the first applications to it to come in in the late spring of this year, and there will be a period between now and then in which a fresh burst of publicity about the scheme and the three essential purposes for which it is available are drawn to the attention of groups that might wish to make such an application.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, what are the chances that the rates will actually diverge between Wales and England? Or, do you feel that the problem of the border is always going to be insuperable in terms of having a more nuanced and specific policy in Wales to meet our own needs?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, David Melding is absolutely right that the border is a very significant issue in landfill disposals tax. Waste tourism, which some of us became familiar with during the passage of the Bill, is a genuine risk, and it is why I said, in setting rates and bands for this tax, that we would not diverge from rates and bands across our border for at least the first two years. We have already diverged, however, in setting a 150 per cent band for unauthorised disposals, and that doesn't existacross our border. So, there is already some—and I think very useful—differentiation here. We will look to see the way in which the tax operates over the first two years of its life because we will now, for the very first time, have precise evidence about the way that landfill disposal occurs in Wales. There will then be an opportunity to see whether some purposeful divergence is possible. I've said all the way along, and I'll say it again: I'm not a believer in divergence for the sake of it. If it suits us and does things in a better way for us in Wales, we will, but we will wait to have the evidence before we make such a decision.

The M4 Relief Road

Jenny Rathbone AC: 6. How much additional funding is required to cover the costs of the M4 relief road? OAQ51757

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, no additional funding will be required for the budget period in which capital plans have been set out, and no money will be allocated until the outcome of the local public inquiry.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The Cardiff capital region has laid out in ‘Powering the Welsh Economy’ that an integrated transport system aligned with land-use planning could be a catalyst for economic change across the region.
‘At the heart of this aspiration is the Metro vision for a modern high quality multimodal, integrated public transport network; offering rapid, frequent and reliable services; linking communities together and supporting economic development; to create a dynamic, sustainable and liveable city region.’
I quote that because there is absolutely no mention of the M4 relief road contributing to that vision. My concerns are that, with the continual rising estimate of the cost of the M4 relief road, were it to go ahead, how much of the Welsh Government’s overall capital borrowing limit would be gobbled up by this project? And what, if anything, would be left for developing the metro?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd,I don’t, myself, find it surprising that the M4 relief road is not referred to in the Cardiff capital deal document, because funding the metro is actually a specific and major component of that deal, and the funding that underpins it is already set aside for metro development.
Let me be clear on the position as far as capital borrowing is concerned. The Welsh Government was offered early access to borrowing, with that borrowing predicated on it being available for the M4. In the event, as I explained to the Finance Committee this morning, I’ve not needed to use borrowing for capital costs for the M4. In this financial year, I’ve been able to cover them using conventional capital. All of that was overtaken by the fiscal framework, which was signed in December 2016. The Welsh Government will be able to borrow £125 million in 2018-19, and that will rise to £150 million thereafter, up to a total of £1 billion. But that borrowing is not hypothecated to the M4. Finance Secretaries at the time will need to take a decision on the balance to be struck between conventional capital and borrowing for the M4, should that go ahead, which is dependent, as we’ve said, on the outcome of the local public inquiry.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, the traffic analytics firm INRIX estimates that the traffic jams on our roads last year cost the Welsh economy almost £278 million, which is a striking figure. Congestion cost Cardiff £134 million, Swansea £62 million, and Newport £44 million. Will the Cabinet Secretary confirm that this cost to the Welsh economy will be taken into account when deciding the future of the proposed M4 relief road in the Newport area? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Making sure that there is transport infrastructure that allows people and business to be moved effectively across Wales is, of course, important to our future, and that's at the heart of the publicinquiry.Does the answer always have to be building more roads? Well, of course it doesn't have to be. That's why we are investing in the metro, to which Jenny Rathbone made reference. So, the issue, of course, is one that we recognise. The solutions to it will be many and various.

Swansea Bay City Deal

Angela Burns AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the progress of the Swansea Bay city deal? OAQ51756

Mark Drakeford AC: The city region continues to work with the Welsh and UK Governments to move the deal into the next phase. That is a delivery phase, and that will unlock Government funding.

Angela Burns AC: Cabinet Secretary, I am a great supporter of the city deal, and I believe that the real benefit will not just be in the 11 projects that have been selected to go forward, but in the economic climate that that infrastructure will create, and the multiple small projects and alternative projects that can come off the back of it.
In Pembrokeshire, the Pembroke Dock marine has been put forward as the key project. Now, Cabinet Secretary, the city deal input is some £28 million, with £24 million coming from other public funds, and another £24 million from the private sector. But could you please confirm to me which organisations will be responsible for paying the interest element of those loans?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the loan aspect, if I'm understanding the Member's question correctly, will be borne bythe local authority, because prudential borrowing was always part of the contribution that local authorities were to make to the deal. When the deal was struck, and the financials of it were very carefully scrutinised both by the Welsh Government and by the UK Government, the ability of local authorities to support the contribution that they are committed to making to the deal was carefully examined. I remain, as I know she does, very keen to move into the phase where the money that I have set aside, and the money I know the UK Government has set aside, can be released, both to support the Pembroke Dock marine project, but also the other 10 projects that are in the deal. Local authorities must make sure that they are in a position to deliver on the funding aspect to which they made a commitment when the deal was signed.

Dai Lloyd AC: Naturally, as you know, as part of the city deal, investment in the public sector is crucial, of course, in order to ensure that the necessary infrastructure is in place and that the individual projects, as we’ve heard, have the best opportunity to succeed. Having said that, everyone is aware that private sector investment will also be crucial to the success of the city deal. Without it, it will fail entirely.
So, given your most recent discussions, can I ask you how confident you are at the moment that the city deal is going to deliver the necessary private investment, and what are you doing as a Government to support these local authorities to achieve their aims?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, one of the things that were on the face of the city deal for Swansea bay was a contribution coming from the private sector and the role that the private sector would play when the deal was designed and planned. Now, I am looking forward to the appointment of the chair of the economic strategy board, which will be key to the deal, and that chair will come from the private sector. So, it is totally vital in the deal to draw together what the local authorities can contribute, what we can contribute as a Government, but also to use the energy and the tangible things that the private sector can contribute to the deal. And I am confident that there is an interest from the private sector, and we can use that to get a deal that will succeed for every part of the south-west of Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: The one thing I'd like to tell the Cabinet Secretary is that there's massive cross-party support from people living in the Swansea bay city region to make Swansea bay city region a success. What I'm asking is: will the Cabinet Secretary confirm that all the money initially budgeted by the Welsh Government for the Swansea bay city deal is still available for the Swansea bay city deal?

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm very happy to confirm to the Member that the £125.4 million that we put on the table to get the deal to its conclusion is still available. I am very committed, and as I said to Angela Burns, to do everything we can to assist the deal to move into the next phase so that money that is available can be put to work to support the commitment that I know is there amongst the local population to make this deal a success.

Borrowing Powers

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's new borrowing powers? OAQ51753

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. The new fiscal framework secures £1 billion-worth of capital borrowing powers, as I've set out before the Finance Committee and in this Chamber. My intention is always to maximise the use of the least expensive forms of capital before proceeding to more complex and expensive kinds of investment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you'll join me in welcoming the new borrowing powers of, as you say, up to £1 billion, under the Wales Act 2017, coming into effect in just a matter of weeks. Now, of course it is vital that these moneys and powers are used to drive the Welsh economy forward, and in north Wales in particular, this means making journey times faster and more reliable, especially in regard to the upgrading of the A55. Can you advise me as to what assurances you plan to give the forthcoming national infrastructure commission in terms of your commitments to using the extra borrowing powers to ensure that access to such financeis taken into account as part of this long-term and much-needed infrastructureplanning here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I do share the Member's welcome for the borrowing powers that we will have. As I'm sure she would point out to me, borrowed money has to be repaid. Therefore, it's a careful balancing act required in investing today and being confident that we are able to pay back the money that we've borrowed in the future. But I regard that, as I think she was just suggesting, as an investment in the future of our country and its economicsuccess. I've listened many times to her making the case for investment in transport mattersin north Wales. I know that she will have welcomed the £250 million that this Government is committed to using to address congestion in the Deeside corridor, and there are other steps that my colleaguethe Cabinet Secretary for economy and investment is making to make sure that A55 continues to be a highway that drives prosperityright across north Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: Borrowing, as you just said, Cabinet Secretary, always comes with a cost, but we are currently at historically very low interest rates and so now is an incredibly good time to borrow, especially if you can get borrowing at fixed rates from the Public Works Loan Board. Has the Welsh Governmentconsidered using borrowingfor our hospital renewal programme to cut the cost for health in running some of thebuildings they've got?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, one of the things that's apparent from the questions we've had this afternoon is the understanding that the borrowing we're able to now draw down is available for a whole range of potential purposes here in Wales. I know that my Cabinet colleagues will be comingto me, all of them, with worthwhile schemesthat they will want to take forward to invest in—essential infrastructureand publicservices and health. The ability to create buildings of the future that run more efficientlywill, I'm sure, be on the list of proposalsthat the Cabinet Secretary for health will want to proposeto me.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

The next item is the topical questions, and to ask the question, Simon Thomas.

Children's services in Powys

Simon Thomas AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on children's services in Powys in the wake of a report by the Mid and West Wales Safeguarding Board regarding the death of a child in the care of the County Council? 142

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Simon. This young person's life was lost in the most tragic of circumstances and I think the publication of the review will be a difficult time for his family. They and we would expect Powys to expeditethe necessary improvements to ensure that the very best care and support is always provided.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Minister for his reply, and obviously all of us would want to send our condolences to the foster parents and anyone else affected in this concern. It's clear from reading the child practice review report that the child had actually expressed very strong anxietiesand uncertainties about his pathway, and one of the most fundamental and very disturbing things to read in the report is this breakdown in communications between a child, his foster carers and the authorities, who simply weren't listening.
If I can ask two questions of the Minister? Earlier this morning, he produced a written statement on children'sservices in Powys, which talked aboutcarrying on working with the county council. I want to understand whether he has taken this review report into account in issuing that written statement, as many people in Powys feel that this is another sign that things have brokendown so fundamentally there that actually there needs to be more direct intervention than the Minister has been prepared to give so far, and I know I've discussed this with him in the past.
The second element that I'd like to ask him about is that it becomes clear from reading the report that the national practiceguidance that he has as the nationalGovernment, 'When I am Ready', which talks very clearly about allowing eligible teenagers to remain in care beyond the age of 18 if they're not ready to leave care, and talks very clearly about puttingthem at the centre of care plans—that good practice guidance simply wasn't followed in this case; no due care was taken to it. So, what assurances can he give the people in Powys now and the wider community that this guidance, whichwe trumpeted as being one of the world-beating kind of guidance for children in care, is actually being followed in all parts of Wales, particularlyin Powys? How can he give those assurances going forward?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I thank Simon both for bringing this to our attention today, but also for the pertinent questions he's raised in his and others' continued focus on these very important matters? Let me deal with each of the points that he has raised. First of all, I just want to thank the young man's parents for their assiduity in pushing for this child practice review. There were different ways of taking this forward; they were insistent on a child practice review. And this extended child practice review is a good opportunity not simply to reflect, but to make sure that the lessons that are within this, some of which he touched upon, are actually now, and they are, built within the improvementthat we are already looking for Powys, in concert with others supporting them, to actually deliver, and to deliver not only in short order, but in the medium and long term as well, so that they're binding.
He referred to the aspect, the fact, that the voices of children and young people themselves, how they important they are generally, and we have that as a matter of principle within our statutory framework, and yet here it was missing. That's a key point that comes out within this review and report, and we would expect Powys as part of its improvement plan—it's already in there—but to take forward the lessons from this in line with their improvement plan, and to make sure that is binding so that the voice of young people is listened to. The voice of the child is key to this.The Chair of the committee sitting next to me has reiterated this in her committee's work before, and so on. We need to make sure that this is implemented on the ground at every interface with front-line professionals.
Simon referred to the approach of 'When I'm Ready'—exactly that point—so that the concerns and the aspirations of young people are listened to, particularly at that moment of transition planning, and here it is made clear in the report that that was not the case. And tragically, we know that if that had been listened to, then perhaps this tragic scenario could have been avoided.
There is indeed a statement that has been issued in the name of my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services and my name today. It's the latest in a sequence of statements following on from improvement plans and action plans. The statement today updates Assembly Members, and I would urge Members to look at the next phase of support to Powys County Council, and the establishment of an improvement and assurance board to oversee and co-ordinate the delivery of improvement in Powys County Council. This doesn't take away from the work that's already going on within social services. What this actually does is build upon that. In urging Members to look at it, it goes wider into the corporate sphere of leadership and the culture of Powys to make sure that these are binding changes, and not only the review and report today, which goes hand in hand with the improvement plans that are already in place, but that wider corporate leadership that needs to be driven through, with support within Powys, and needs to really bind, so that we minimise the possibility of this sort of eventuality ever happening again. So, I draw attention to that statement.
I've also asked my officials to ensure that the learning from this child practice review informs the ongoing work of my ministerial advisory group, chaired by David Melding, our colleague, on improving outcomes for children, and also to advise the ongoing work of Social Care Wales and the work of the other safeguarding children boards in Wales. Too often, we say we have to learn the lessons from this. Well, some of these lessons had already been learnt—we put in place the right frameworks, and so on—we now need to make sure that it's implemented without failure right across the board.

Russell George AC: Minister, the tragic case that's been outlined today, of course, clearly goes back to 2015 and predates the critical care standards inspection report into children's services that was issued last October. Will the work of the current children's services improvement board take into accountthe findings of this report, and what lessons do you think have been learnt in the wider context? And can I also ask, in light of this report, do you think that there is a need for further assistance to the local authority?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: On the latter point—thank you for those queries—indeed, if I could refer the Member to the quite extensive statement that we've made jointly today, because it signalsthe higher level of engagement that we now have directly with Powys on a corporate level, on a cultural level and on a leadership level, which goes beyond the sphere of purely social services. I thank my colleague for the very intimate way that our officials have engaged in this matter, trying to actually help Powys to help itself and turn this around. There's been a great deal of peer support from other authorities already, not only within social services, but now within the wider corporate sphere as well.
In terms of how this feeds into the ongoing work, well, yes, absolutely. I'm pleased to say that in line with the previous statements that we've made and the warning notices that we've issued, and the actions that we have demanded of Powys, whilst putting support to them as well, which they have readily now taken, this does form part of the ongoing work. So, all of the action plans that are identified within here—. If you look at the four key areas that have come out of this report:transition planning, including the knowledge of the 'When I'm Ready' approachand the legal framework for children,when the local authority does not share parental responsibility—that's part of it;the escalation and challenge, which includes the development of quality assurance mechanisms and performance information—that's part of the ongoing improvement work;the corporate parenting, including the development of quality assurance mechanisms to monitor the effectiveness of the resolving professional difference policy, the use of multi-agency performance, tracking good outcomes for children—that's part of the improvement plan; and finally, the fourth key point, the key point of participation and the voice of the child. This includes a review of the effectiveness of regionallycommissioned advocacy and assurances from the regional safeguarding board, CYSUR, and from partners about how the voice of the child influences their ability to ensure good outcomes for children. So, all of this dovetails very much with the improvement plan that is already in place.
As I say, the announcement today—the joint statement from me and my Cabinet Secretary colleague—shows the higher level now of engagement with Powys to make sure that, not only in social services but right across Powys, this change in leadership and culture and ownership is there.

Neil Hamilton AC: Can I support Simon Thomas in what he said earlier on and also support the Minister in what he has just said about helping Powys to help itself? I know from discussions with him that, if that doesn't bear fruit in due course, he will take more draconian action. I wonder whether he'd agree with me that one of the most troubling features of this case as it appears in the child practice review report is that, as it says,
'the most significant challenge appeared to be the simplest, namely that of good communication and coordinated planning, based on a thorough understanding of Child A’s daily lived experiences and the significant impact of serious early childhood trauma.'
This seems to be a failure of partnership working, principally, and it's rather troubling that we have all these professionals who are apparently unable to communicate effectively with each other. In this particular case, child A was very eloquent in telling them what his needs were, and the difficulty was that the professionals were not able to communicate that between themselves. Nobody underestimates the difficulty of the job that these professionals have, soone doesn't want to undermine their confidence or esteem in themselves, but nonetheless there are very significant lessons here that must be learned by all those in the chain of authority leading to this dreadful outcome.
So, I wonder whether the Minister can tell us today in rather more detail how this improvement in communication within the authority and between the different professionals involved is going to be effected.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Yes, indeed. Thank you, Neil. You're right in drawing attention to some of the key parts of the report that say, for example, that professionals need to feel confident—to feel confident—when working with parents who are perceived as challenging and to be more empathetic in working with families,that all professionals need to have up-to-date knowledge of new guidance and legislation, and be able to think creatively about planning with and for children in their care and so on.
This is about good practice, and there is individual good practice within Powys.The problem is this aspect that we have seen where it's not simply the leadership within a department, it's leadership at all levels, the sharing of best practice and the dissemination of best practice, and that professional approach. Now, it is turning round. That's why we reissued a warning notice.
We noted the improvement on 15 January that had been made already, including the appointment of new leadership, on an interim level, to certain key positions. But there is more to be done, and that's why we haven't lifted the warning notice, we've extended it and highlighted the key milestones in a month, in three months, in six months and beyond. We are keeping our support firmly there, our encouragement to do better firmly there, and we are seeing the improvement. I think, if anything would give solace to the family and those people who knew this young person today, it would be that this is translated now into that continual improvement within Powys.
It's worth reflecting that the purpose of a child practice review isn't to point the finger of blame. It's to actually say, 'This is where you can positively make a difference and improve, and we expect that to happen.' So, we and CYSUR, and all the other agencies and the peer support that's already in place, will be working with them to make sure that these improvements are bolted in and that we give those front-line professionals both the confidence and the knowledge they need to do their jobs well, creatively and safely, looking after our young people, giving our young people the right opportunities and the right choices, and not locking them out of the conversation. That's what the learning from this tells us, and that's why it needs to be embedded into the existing improvement plan that is ongoing, which we have some confidence is being delivered, but there is a long way to go still.

Joyce Watson AC: The first thing I want to do is to send my condolences to anyone who has been affected by what is a real tragedy. But the tragedy, it seems to me, in all of this—Neil Hamilton did talk about the chain of events and conversations, and I agree with him, because what it should have been was a circle. We had this extended chain of individuals speaking separately, when they should have been clearly joined up. I don't know about other people, but I do know about myself: I'm absolutely fed up of talking about case reviews where things have gone wrong from a lack of joined-up thinking—these key words that don't ever deliver any change. And yet we will learn from it. Well, will we? That's the question I'm posing here today, because it's really, really upsetting to read about the anguish that this young person went through, who expressed that to certain individuals, but nobody along the line actively intervened in the best interests of this child.
I know in the past—and I'm sincerely hoping things have changed—when I've written to Powys council because I was concerned about a family, and asked them to act, they said that I had to write my concerns to the cabinet member. Whoever heard of such a thing? I wrote back in the strongest of terms, saying, 'Just forget that one, and try and take some action.'I still had to write back six months later, asking for a reply. So, whilst we might have lots of faith here, mine has been stretched to the ultimate, and it would have been about this time. I see others nodding their heads saying they've had the same experience.
So, my question here is that wereally need to go inand make sure that not only do Powys learn these lessons, but that everybody else learns them too, so that we don't have to read about young, vulnerable individuals who are terrified of going into the world on their own, who didn't actually have to go into the world on their own, because there was a system in place that would have supported them, and that was called, 'When I'm Ready'. I really think we ought to do something about this now. I'm really fed up with sitting here listening to the failures, time and time again.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Joyce, thank you very much. I think any Minister who stands in a position like this and says, 'We will be able to rule this out, any eventuality like this ever happening again', would be an unwise Minister. But it is within our power, both through the messages that we've just heard, through the frameworks that we've set in place—and do bear in mind that, within Wales, we're in some ways aheadof thegame here, because of theway that we've approached safeguarding with thenational board, with the regionalboards, that framework of safeguarding, with some of the initiativesthat have been talked about that actually should have been embedded here, should have been delivered on the ground. Listening to young people is what we do, it's what the—. It's the framework that we've put in place.
But I think the anxieties of Assembly Members within the Chamber today, I hope, will have been heard in Powys, but I would also like them to hear not only good front-line staff, but also the changes thatthey've been putting in place over recent months because of the willingness of this Assembly and this Government to hold their toes to the fire, both encouraging, but also saying that there is a backstop position here if things do not improve—that they will improve, and we are seeing them happening on the ground now within Powys.
Your point is well made, though, as well, that the lessons from this child practice review, as for any child practice review, should not be simply for Powys, they should be right across the piece, and that is what will go out. That is the message from here. This child practice review will be disseminated not simply across that region, but, through the national safeguarding board, across the whole of Wales as well. We do need to keep the focus on excellence within this service, listening to young people, providing them with what they deserve and what they need and listening to them to do so. It has failed on this point. It is a tragedy that it has failed, andI think the voices of Assembly Members today in saying that we have to do everything to avoid this happening again thatis within our power and encourage those who work on the front line to have the confidence and the skills and the knowledge to make the right decisionsand to engage with young people—I think that has come across very strongly indeed this afternoon.

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item, therefore, is the 90-second statements. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: We know that the newspaper industry generally is contracting these days and that there is concern about the future of many titles and that much of the emphasis is on creating hyperlocal websites. But there are two areas in Wales that still see the value in their local weekly newspapers, and it shows that hyperlocal newsprint still survives and still thrives. Corwen Times and Y Cyfnod, which serve areas of Edeyrnion and Meirionnydd, have started a new period in their history last week—a history that goes back to the establishment of Y Cyfnod in 1934 and Corwen Times and Merioneth Express, as I understand it, emerging in the 1950s.
The Merioneth Express disappeared in 2013 as the three papers came to an end for a brief period, but, thanks to the work of Mari Williams of Llanuwchllyn, who stepped into the breach at that point, Corwen Times and Y Cyfnod were reborn, and she has just transferred the reins to Siân Teleri, a local woman who has identified the need, but also the opportunity, to develop these papers further.
There's no doubt that Corwen Times and Y Cyfnod offer an important service in the areas that they serve, with thousands of people reading them on a weekly basis and they are being produced, by the way, without any public financial support.
Therefore, as we see the newsprint industry across Wales shrinking, I wanted to take this opportunity to congratulate Siân Teleri and the team of Corwen Times and Y Cyfnod for securing a future for a newspaper that has been, and is still, central in their communities, and I’m sure that we would all wish them all the best for a prosperous future.

Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Llywydd. AMs from all parties came together today at an event organised by the Wales Environment Link.This was held in support of the Show the Love campaign.
We know the risks posed by climate change to the world around us.It’s affected the behaviour, abundance and distribution of all manner of flora, fauna and fungi around the world, but also here in Wales.But it is not too late for us to make a real difference and protect Wales, and the rest of the world, from climate change, observing and understanding the warning signs and taking remedial action. Show the Love gives us the chance to think about the places, species and habitats we love and want to protect.It helps us celebrate the significant progress we've already made, whilst also affordingus an opportunity to consider the next steps we can take to build a clean, secure and sustainable future. Those of us who are species champions have been given green hearts to wear as symbols of the campaign—a very fitting emblem on Valentine's Day of all days. Thank you to the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds supporters who crafted them. I will wear mine with pride as species champion for the nightjar and also as a reminder both of the impact of climate change and the role that I, and all of us,can play in tackling it.

Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Arthur Joseph Gould was known as 'the prince of the three quarters', and Wales's first rugby superstar. Gould was nicknamed 'Monkey' for his love of climbing trees as a child, played rugby for his hometown, Newport Rugby Football Club. His first full game was at Rodney Parade on 20 October 1882. In that game, he ignored his captain's repeated instruction to kick, and scored two tries. He went on to become a complete footballer, running 100 yards in 10.2 seconds, and successfully being able to kick off both feet. Gould's career spanned 16 seasons. He played for Newport during the 'invincible' season of 1892, and played 27 times for Wales. He captained the national side 19 times, including the Triple Crown win in 1893. Arthur was so popular in Newport that fans were determined to honour him by presenting him with the deeds ofthe house he was living in—Thornbury, on Llanthewy Road. They were presented to him in commemoration of his brilliant successes as an all-round athlete, in recognition of his valuable service to rugby football and of his extraordinary prowess as a player. Last week, following a crowdfunding appeal, a blue plaque was installed on Thornbury. This will ensure that Arthur 'Monkey' Gould will forever be remembered in his beloved home of Newport, and is a testament to 'the prince of the three quarters'.

Motions to elect a Member to committees

The next item, therefore, is motions to elect a Member to committees. In accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, I propose that the motions to elect a Member to committees are grouped for debate and voting. I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move.

Paul Davies AC: Formally.

Motion NDM6659Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Jack Sargeant (Labour) as a Member of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee in place of Dawn Bowden (Labour).
MotionNDM6660Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Jack Sargeant (Labour) as a Member of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee in place of Mick Antoniw (Labour).
Motion NDM6661Elin Jones (Ceredigion)
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Jack Sargeant (Labour) as a Member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee in place of Lee Waters (Labour).

Motions moved.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motions are therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Unadopted roads

That brings us to our next item, which is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), and I call on Dai Lloyd to move the motion.

Motion NDM6635Dai Lloyd,David Melding,Nick Ramsay,Mike Hedges 
Supported byVikki Howells
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes the number of roads in Wales which are unadopted, and are therefore not maintained by the relevant local authority.
2. Notes that a number of developers have not built roads on new estates to adoptable standards.
3. Recognises that there are weaknesses in the house-buying process, which does not always ensure that buyers have sufficient financial retentions in place to bring these roads up to the local authority's adoptable standard.
4. Recognises that house buyers are often faced with having to invest significant sums of money in order to bring roads up to the local authority's adoptable standard.
5. Notes that many of these roads remain unadopted and in a bad state of repair, for a number of years, sometimes in perpetuity.
6. Calls on the Welsh Government to establish a taskforce, to include local authorities, the legal profession, developers and other key stakeholders, with a view to developing improvements to the house buying and road adoption process.
7. Seeks to develop a Wales-wide programme to deliver a reduction in the number of unadopted roads in Wales.

Motion moved.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I’m very pleased to open this debate on unadopted roads.
Following my election to Swansea County Council in 1998, one of the first pieces of casework I received involved an unadopted road in Waunarlwydd. The road in question was full of potholes and uneven, it posed a risk to the health and safety of its users, and, ultimately, it detracted from the local area’s beauty. The road had been unadopted for decades, and walkers and vehicles would have a hard time traversing it. The local residents and visitors were entirely fed up. Twenty years later, the road remains unadopted, and they continue to be fed up.
The road in Waunarlwydd, of course, is not an isolated case. Throughout Wales, in almost every constituency, we see example after example of these roads. Some of these roads are ancient, and who owns them is unknown. In Wales, several of these roads were developed during the nineteenth century, when land was provided for miners’ cottages on coal magnates’ estates. Terraced houses were often built with minimal infrastructure. With the nationalisation of the industry, some of these houses were sold to the National Coal Board, but what happened to the land between them wasn’t clear.
When the coal industry was decimated in the 1980s, the issue of who owned the land became even less clear. Often without any street lighting, without drainage and without a proper surface, these roads become inaccessible to older residents, especially at night and in the winter months. They are also unsuitable for children in our most disadvantaged communities—they are no place for a bike or skateboard, nor are they safe places to kick a ball. In addition, these roads can also be wholly unsuitable for the emergency services, such as ambulances or fire engines, and can create additional pressures as these services attempt to respond to an emergency.Due to their poor condition, they're often the cause of a significant amount of letters, e-mails and telephone conversations between residents and county councils acrossWales, often going round and round in circles, with the problems persisting.

Dai Lloyd AC: Unadopted roads are the responsibility of the road owner, if they can be found, or the residents of properties fronting on to the unadopted road, often with no help from the local authority even though they pay full council tax. Unadopted roads, of course, can be adopted at the instigation of either a local authority or the frontages, but local authorities would normally expect the road to be of a proper standard before it can be adopted. Under section 236 of the Highways Act 1980, the local authorityis permitted, but not required, to pay some or all of the cost of bringing a road up to an adoptable standard. The reality, of course, is that local authorities rarelyinstigate the process, and, in these austere times, it's seen as a liability that they can do without. The precise scale of the problem is not actually known. While local authorities are required by the Highways Act 1980 to maintain a register of the roads for which they are responsible, thereis no such requirement to maintain a register of unadopted roads within their areas. Therefore, quantifying the scale of the problems is difficult. The data that is commonly quoted is generally sourced from a 2010 House of Commons library note on unadopted roads, which states that a Department for Transport survey in 1972 found that there were then approximately 40,000 unadopted roads in England and Wales, making up some 4,000 miles of road then. It's not justthe roads that are neglected, but the stats are as well.
The UK Government estimated in 2009 that it would cost £3 billion to make up these roads to an adoptable standard. The reality is that, as well as these historic unadopted roads surveyed in 1972, we have had a significant number of new estates being built in Wales, and we can all point to examples in our own areas where developers have either decided not to put forward roads for adoption, or have goneinto liquidation, and where the roads in question remain unadopted for years on end and often in a state of disrepair.

Nick Ramsay AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Dai Lloyd AC: Yes.

Nick Ramsay AC: I've got those statistics in front of me as well, Dai Lloyd, and, as you say, 1972 is going back—well, it's when we entered the EuropeanUnion, isn't it, or around that time. Would you join me in calling on the Welsh Government to get the up-to-date statistics so we know what we're dealing with in this situation, and then we can move on and get these roads sorted?

Dai Lloyd AC: Absolutely. I was coming to that as part of a call for a taskforce later on. We need to know exactly where we are now. We are also seeing a rise in the number of new estates being developed with households then subject to annual management fees, sometimes running into hundreds of pounds a year on top of their council tax bills. There can be no doubt that the number of unadopted roads in Wales is on the rise. We might not be able to put a national figure on it— I'm sure we're working on it—but we can all see the reality on the ground.
Since residents cannot look to the local authority to maintain their road, they must do so themselves. Residents sometimes form an association, collect contributions, organise maintenance and deal with other issues such as insurance, parking, tree surgery, rights of way and so on. This brings with it added stress for house buyers, local residents and local representatives, which often results in disagreements, community tensions, legal costs and much local authority officer time being wasted going over the same arguments year after year. There must be a better way, a simpler way, a fairer way.
The issue of legal advice is one aspect that comes up time and time again. We hear of examples of new housing estates being built, the developer going into liquidation, and the residents left to foot the bill in order to bring the road up to an adoptable standard. Very often, the sums that the solicitors have retained for this purpose are totally inadequate—only a few hundred pounds, where the actual cost for bringing the sewerage, roads and lighting up to adoptable standard runs into thousands. For many low-income families whose savings have been spent in buying their first home, this is an expense that they simply cannot meet. It is unfair, and it is cruel. What advice is available to solicitors to help them set aside sufficient levels of retentions? What more can local authorities do to address the situation? What can the Welsh Government do to aid the legal profession and bring about a uniform and fair system in Wales? Members will know that this area of law generates a large number of constituent enquiries. The adoption of roads is a devolved matter, so we have the power to bring about change.
We need to ask ourselves this afternoon some pretty fundamental questions. Do we believe that the current situation is unacceptable? Do we believe that we can develop a better system? Do we believe that the Welsh Government should be taking steps to address the issue? The answer to those questions, in my mind, is a resounding 'yes', 'yes' and 'yes'.

Dai Lloyd AC: So, what can we do? Is there a case for changing legislation to ensure that more roads are adopted? Can we seek to establish a national, regional or local funding mechanism that would allow local authorities to adopt roads? What about innovative funding solutions—interest-free loans to residents who want to adopt roads, payable over a long term, perhaps? Is there room to introduce legislation that would allow land adjacent to these roads to be sold, with the funds used to bring roads up to adoption standards? Are there additional duties that could be placed on local authorities to be more proactive in getting to grips with this issue? Can we develop a long-term plan, over a number of years, to decrease the number of roads yet to be adopted? I believe that it is vital that we get to grips with these problems facing taxpayers and residents in a number of our communities. Those residents deserve support, not indifference.
The motion today calls on the Welsh Government to establish a taskforce, including local authorities, the legal profession, developers and other stakeholders, including those people who can count how many of these roads aren’t adopted in our nation, with the intention of developing improvements to the processes for purchasing houses and adopting roads. I am confident that, through collaboration, the Assembly can show clear leadership on this issue and develop a programme that will decrease the number of unadopted roads here in Wales. We must develop a better system, a system that’s simpler and a system that is fairer. Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: Unadopted roads can be split into three categories: unmade roads—I think Dai Lloyd's explained in great detail about those—private roads that have public access but have been made up by the local residents, and people probably don't know they are unadopted roads; and what I want to concentrate on is roads in new estates that have not been built to a standard that would allow the council to adopt them, and there are a lot of those happening at the moment. I know Dai Lloyd mentioned builders going bankrupt; some of this is done by some of the biggest builders in Britain. They're building estates, and they're not building them anywhere near the standard. I've got an estate, a very large, relatively affluent estate near where I live, which Dai Lloyd will know, which is the Herbert Thomas Way estate, which used to be known as Brynheulog, where there are a lot of roads that are unadopted. I'm sure that Dai Lloyd has had lots of letters from the residents and has been talking to the residents' association. I have, and I'm sure the Minister has been contacted by them as well. I want to concentrate on this group.
A new road will be considered by the council for adoption provided that the freehold owners of the land dedicate the road as a public highway when it is built, under a section 38 agreement of the Highways Act 1980, and the following criteria are met: there is a direct link with the existing public highway network; it must be of sufficient utility to the public and offer wider community benefits; the roads offered for adoption will have a wider use than simply providing access for individuals to their houses; the road will remain open to the public to pass and repass at all times when formally adopted; the carriageway and footways offer safe passage for pedestrians and vehicles. That's the easy bit. If that was the answer, there would be no problem at all, but the next bit is the bit that catches them: the carriageway and footways have an approved means of surface water drainage, street lighting must conform with current local requirements and national standards, and the road is constructed to a satisfactory standard. And I'll tell you, I wouldn't know, walking down a road, how thick the tarmac is on it. If I see tarmac on it, I assume it's okay. I'm sure most other people who are not civil engineers would feel exactly the same. And commuted sums are paid to provide ongoing maintenance.
For all roads offered for adoption, the developers must ensure that these accord with the above criteria prior to consulting the councils. Councils do not adopt all new roads built by housing developers. Housing developers can choose to keep their new roads private if roads do not meet the above criteria. Residents see a new tarmac road and believe it will be adopted. Why wouldn’t they? I would. They do not know if the drainage meets the requirements or not. They don't know whether the lighting columns are the right height in the right places, have the right-sized bulbs, are able to have the right-sized bulbs, are dealt with effectively by electricity. How would they? And they have no idea what the sub-structure of the road is like. The first that many residents on new estates know that their road has not been adopted by the council is when a problem occurs.
Often, astreet light stops working and they then go directly to the council who tell them, 'It's not our responsibility.' This is when the irate residents contact, first, their local councillors, then their local Assembly Members and MPs. This is becoming more of a problem as major house builders are not building roads to adoptable standards. This has to be addressed.This needs legislation, I'm afraid. When a new planning law is brought in, it needs to allow councils to set a planning condition that all roads will be constructed to adoptable standards and that roads built are built to a standard under a section 38 agreement. I do not believe that people buying a house on a new estate want unadopted roads. In fact, all my experience is they're desperate to have their roads adopted.Why would they want an unadopted road? Why would they want a road where they are responsible for its maintenance? No rational person, I would suggest, would want to buy a new house and then want to look after the road themselves.If nothing else, it reduces the resale value of the property.
It always amazes me that, under conditions, planners can specify the brick colour, the colour of the window frames, but cannot specify that the road must be built to adoptable standard. I'll tell you now, most people buying a house would take adoptable standard of the road well ahead of what colour brick it's made of and what colour windows it has. This is an issue causing concern for many people. When a road is unadopted, a fairly lengthy process has to be undertaken to get it adopted. I supported a constituent in getting Bishop’s Walk in Morriston adopted, which was only completed because it had one resident prepared to lead on it and do all the work—work with the solicitor, and, more importantly, set up a company. I mean, it's a fairly lengthy process. It's not, 'Dear Sir, please will you adopt our road?' It's a fairly lengthy process, and all the residents worked together and supported it. If one resident had been opposed, it would not have gone to being adopted. If one resident had been unwilling to pay any of the money needed, it would not have been adopted.
All new estates should have roads built to adoptable standard. As the developers are not doing it voluntarily, I would urge the Government to give serious consideration to legislating, as part of the new planning Bill, to ensure that all roads built must be to adoptable standard.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

David Melding AC: I think we've heard two outstanding speeches that covered most of the ground and done so, I think, with great eloquence, because I think we all have experience of this issue and it is a matter that really does affect our constituents. It affects day-to-day life and can leave them in a very exposed financial situation. Like others, I've been very concerned to find that we're way short of best practice, often, in the waydevelopers leave roads in newestates. We have a historical problem, which is probably more difficult to deal with, but what's happening at the moment, when we're building record low numbers of houses—it does seem astonishing that we can't regulate that activity more effectively.
I'm very concerned about what happens when roads are unadopted. Just to spell it out: roads, grass verges, pavements and playgrounds are then retained by the developer and the developer usually subcontracts day-to-day management. These companies pass on the costs to homeowners, for freeholders and leaseholders, via a deed of transfer that obliges the homeowner under the Law of Property Act 1925—I think that takes us even further back than the research note from the House of Commons Library of 1972 [Laughter.] The Law of Property Act 1925 is governing these practices, and they have to pay for the maintenance of the land. This is often referred to as an estate charge, a community charge—not a name that evokes very much happiness—or a service charge, and, unfortunately, these practices are not dying out. I share the real anger that Mike had for this being continued now.
We are already facing, generally, problems of affordability with housing. I mean, even people in good jobs and, however, no access to other wealth—or wealth—find it difficult to buy a home, and then to be faced with these sorts of charges and—. I have to say, it would never occur to me to check that the road is being built to acceptable standards and, you know,by the time you gounder the road and think of the drainage and everything—these are duties of care that the planning system should be able to deliver, frankly.I think that's what we should be aiming for.
Some of the other onerous clauses on these ground rents are just remarkable—a charge for altering the property, charges even to sell the property. Some practices are perhaps similar to what we're now experiencing with the leasehold crisis coming back, and developers sometimes selling on leasehold, and then selling on those leaseholds, and doing the same with the management companies. They're not required to publish accounts to the residents and to prove the works that are being charged for are being delivered to an appropriate standard. There's a horrible lack of transparency in this area. It is antiquated and it's leaving these home owners exposed to really punishing practices. As Mike said, these matters are now devolved, as far as I understand, and they are things that we can attempt to tackle.
So, if you are minded to tackle this area, Cabinet Secretary, I think you can rely on extensive support across the Chamber, and I do hope that you will move—. You've heard the suggestion of a new law or, at least, a taskforce at first to examine the situation.
Can I just finish with the lack of data? I'm told that there are 92 km of unadopted highways in Cardiff. It is really quite remarkable—[Interruption.] Well, that's their best guess in 2010. So, it may be very different now. But really, this area cries out for reform and we should deliver it.

Lynne Neagle AC: I'm pleased to make a brief contribution to this debate. Now, I don't profess to have the kind of detailed and technical knowledge that some of our other speakers have shown this afternoon, but what I do know is that I have dealt with a very steady stream of complaints about unadopted roads in my 19 years as Assembly Member for Torfaen. Now, in some cases, those roads have been in a genuinely woeful condition. I made a site visit a few years ago to Brook Street in Pontrhydyrun in Cwmbran, tofind that the road was in such a bad state on a rainy day that a duck had actually taken up residence in one of the potholes there. I hasten to add that this was not a water feature that anybody in the street was pleased to see.
Now, I am acutely aware of how cash-strapped my local authority is. I know that they simply don't have the resources to deal with this problem throughout the borough, and I also know that, in most cases, my constituents don't have the spare cash either. So, I therefore very much welcome the idea of a taskforce to bring everybody together to look at this issue. We all know that we are in very difficult times because of austerity with our public finances, but I hope that bringing people together can be an opportunity to look at innovative solutions, like the ones that Dai Lloyd has referred to, but others such as where the local authorities can come together to block-buy materials to work together to do things. I really think we have to think outside of the box on this. Otherwise, it will be a problem that's with us in another 40 years, and that duck will still be there. So, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute. I will be supporting this motion.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you to Dai Lloyd for bringing this debate forward this afternoon. I think it's the third debate that we've had on similar areas. We've talked about cavity wall insulation and leaseholds, and now this issue today. These are issues that do concern our constituents, and it's very appropriate that we discuss them here at the National Assembly and, more importantly, that we seek solutions to these problems.
I'm going to tell you about one example in my own constituency, which is a perfect example of what we're talking about this afternoon. The Caeau Gleision estate in Rhiwlas is an estate of 80 houses built between 1975 and the early 1980s.The cul-de-sacs there are now in an appalling condition, to say the least. I haven’t seen any ducks in residence yet, but there are large, water-filled potholes and there are huge problems. The roads and cul-de-sacs on this estate have never been adopted by the local authority, namely Gwynedd Council, and there are nine of these cul-de-sacs on the estate. Over a period of time, the surface laid by the developers has been washed away, leaving large potholes and puddles, and rock in some places, or the hard-standing. That is all that is left. From what I understand also, there are pitch fibre pipes that have been laid to carry surface water away, and whilst these kinds of pipes were recommended at the time, they have now become damaged and they’re not fit for purpose. They need to be repaired.
There are individuals on the estate who have tried to tackle this problem. They’ve been in touch with the county council, and the MP and I as the Assembly Member have been trying to help them, but unfortunately we haven’t had much success to date. The response that we get from Gwynedd Council is that the roads and cul-de-sacs are unadopted and therefore, in the current economic climate, they don’t intend to do anything about the situation. By now, because of the condition of these roads, the estate as a whole appears to be very unkempt, despite the fact that the residents are keeping their homes as neat and tidy as possible.
We in the constituency have tried to do some research into this area to see what’s possible and we’ve been studying a book by the author Andrew Barsby, a book called Private Roads, and this includes a number of suggestions as to how residents can take action, but it depends, to a great extent, on having ownership of the road, which isn’t always an easy process. The developers disappear over time, and it can be a very expensive process for individuals, of course. According to the book Private Roads, if it’s not possible to gain ownership of a particular road, then it is possible for local residents to make improvements to the state of the road, but they do run the risk of prosecution on the basis of unlawful trespass.
So, it’s a difficult situation, and I welcome the proposals put forward here, particularly the idea of the establishment of a taskforce and having a work programme in place so that we can tackle this problem in a meaningful way and resolve a problem that exists in all constituencies, I would assume. Thank you.

David J Rowlands AC: Many of the points I make will have already been made by other contributors to this debate, but I make no excuses for repeating them because I don't think these arguments could be repeated too often. I, as have many others, have had a number of contacts from constituents with regard to the matters raised in this motion, which can, in certain circumstances, lead to health issues caused by anxieties with regard to the financial problems related to unadopted roads. So, UKIP is broadly in agreement with all the points included in this motion and would be supportive of the calls on the Welsh Government includedin point 6.
However, could not all of the points and problems noted in the motion be negated in the future by the local authority making planning permission dependent on the developers contracting to provide roads to an adoptable standard?

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention?

David J Rowlands AC: Yes.

Mike Hedges AC: That's what I asked for because, at the moment, they can't make that a condition on giving planning permission.

David J Rowlands AC: Well, thank you for that, Mike.
But subsequent failure to provide such roads would then place them in breach of contract and liable to commercial penalties. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary will look to being able to give local authorities that power in the future. With regard to historical neglect in respect of unadoptedroads, I fear that this will not be seen as a high priority for local authorities. Lynne Neagle has made the point that, obviously, they are under great austerity measures andthere could be substantial costs in bringing the roadsto an adoptable standard. And, of course, an adopted road will be a further and continuing drain on their resources.It would therefore seem that only the Welsh Government would have the necessary funds to carry out these improvements or repairs, but is there a will to do so?

Lee Waters AC: Hear, hear.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thanks, Lee. [Laughter.]I'm delighted to speak to Lee Waters and to the rest of the Assembly as well.
I'm pleased to subscribe to this motion. Roads are an issue close to my heart, whether I'm supporting them or opposing them, with some of my colleagues sometimes. And at the heart of this motion is the fact that, when you leave the beaten track of our motorways and our A roads and B roads, many of our rural roads and also, as we've heard, oururban roads areindeed way below the standard that we would expect, and many speakers have already spoken about those problems.
I was looking at the website of the Resident Adoption Action Group, which outlines some of the issues affecting our unadopted roads in Wales, including the fact that regular health and safety inspections are not being undertaken to ensure that the roads are being kept safe. And as this is a national issue, there are countless road users who are regularly driving on unsafe and unregulated roads. As Mike Hedgesand other speakers have mentioned, developers can often save thousands by dodging the legal agreements that pass the roads on to local authority control—an issue that seemingly has no repercussions for those developers. And I support Mike Hedges'scall and others to perhaps put this on a statutory footing to make sure that road adoption is part of that planning process at the outset.
Clearly, we need to make unadopted roads a priority, and in order to fully do that, we do need up-to-date statistics. I'm still laughing, amused, at Dai Lloyd'smention of the 1972Department for Transport survey that found that there were then approximately 40,000 unadopted roads in England and Wales. I think it would be helpful if we did have some Welsh statistics. So, I support the call for a taskforce and ask the economy and infrastructure Secretary to look into getting some up-to-date statistics on that infrastructure.
I do think that there is light at the end of this tunnel—pardon the pun—and if we look back through history, as David Melding did, there is good reason to be hopeful for the future. In fact, roads in the UK were not classified at all until the 1920s, and the classification itself was not tidied up until the 1930s. In those days, they had a rolling, yearly reassessment of the classification of roads—probably far more up-to-date than it has been since 1972, but they recognised the importance of a good road structure. And when we went into the second world war, the road network was in a shambolic state, and after that war, it was clear that something—[Interruption.] Tory Government—get over yourself. [Laughter.]After thesecond world war,it was clear that something needed to be done, and there was that programme of road building and road improvements that has been going on since then. But throughout all of the time, under Labour Governments and Conservative Governments and coalition Governments, the issue of unadopted roads was not addressed, and maybe that's because it was seen to be too difficult to deal with, or just easier to ignore, and it wasn't necessary to the national infrastructure of the country. But, of course, we now know that many of these roads are not just unsuitable for emergency vehicles—and I was looking at a case where an ambulance actually got lodged in a pothole on one of these roads back in 2014—but, of course, those road surfaces aren't even suitable for modern motor vehicles of any standard. So, this is a problem that has existed for far too long.
I'm delighted that Dai Lloyd asked me to be a subscriber. I think there is general agreement in this Chamber that something does now need to be done. So, let's get on with the job of doing that, let's get a proper survey, get that taskforce under way, get a survey to see what were actually dealing with, and then look to bring all our roads up to a satisfactory standard so that motorists and emergency vehicles can drive on safe roads.

Hefin David AC: There is an estate in my constituency that was built in the 1970s: the roads are spacious, there's plenty of parking, large gardens, and spacious houses. And it is striking that when you visit the newer houses that have been built in the last decade, the newer estates that have been built in the last decade, the houses are squashed in, it's unclear which street is which, and everyone is packed in together and the roads areunadopted. We have taken steps backwards in the last 10 years, and I think that part of it is because the big four housing developers, or the big six housing developers, are using the housing shortage to their advantage, and they have all the powerin these circumstances. That's not good enough,and I think this is an opportunity to do something about it. I'm not going to repeat, actually, Dai Lloyd's speech, David Melding's speech and Mike Hedges's speech—my speech was an amalgam of those three. So, I'm not going to go and repeat everything that's been said, but I will just pick up on some of those things.
Adoption of roads: absolutely. I've checked out the statistics and there is one unadopted private street—that's a street with only one access point—in Caerphilly borough. There are seven unadopted rear lanes. But there are 15 unadopted new developments, and what is happening—. I'm going to name-check Castle Reach and Kingsmead estates, because I've been trying to sort out the broadband there. I went out and delivered a letter to every house about broadband and nearly sprained my ankle on the potholes that are in the roads on that unadopted estate. It is not good enough. I've had correspondence from constituents who feel very strongly. And the estate is still being built. People have been living there for two years. The estate is still being built. When are they going to finish? They're stringing it out so they don't have to complete the roads and the infrastructure. It is not good enough.
I had a meeting at Cwm Calon at the other end of my constituency, which is a completed estate with most of the roads adopted, but some still not. The residents there are paying to an estate management company. I shouted the word 'extortionate' when that was being said, and Michelle Brown said, 'Well, it's not extortionate'. Well, actually, I don't think that's too far off the mark, to be honest with you. The residents in Cwm Calon wrote to the estate management company. One resident had a response from the estate management company to her. 'With respect', it said, in an e-mail, 'get a life'. That's from the estate management company to a resident in Cwm Calon estate. Absolutely disgraceful.
Now, I'll be looking to have a meeting with both the developer and the estate management company to look at what more they can do to complete the work that they should be doing as a result of the monthly payments that people are making in that estate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Hefin David AC: Yes. Sorry, I'm really angry.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Just to share an experience in my constituency where one developer said, 'If you go to your Assembly Member, I will make damn sure that I will never do the work that needs to be done on your street'.

Hefin David AC: Rhun ap Iorwerth, you make a very clear point, because that is exactly the kind of language that's being used, because the power is in the hands of these people. They're doing the minimum—the estate management company are doing the minimum amount of work on these estates. They're holding residents to ransom, and the contracts that you have to sign to buy your house aren't worth the paper they're written on when you want work done. It's used as something to constrain and control residents and make sure they just keep on paying up. And I think that needs to change, too. So, it's not just the unadopted roads. It's also the way that the estate management companies work.
So, I think—very rarely do I get furious in this Chamber, but I'm, I think justifiably, furious about the way residents are being treated in my constituency. I'm not pleased, but I'm pleased that we've had the opportunity for other constituency and regional AMs to identify that this is happening in their constituencies and regions too. So, I think it's time to take this opportunity to support this motion and ask the Cabinet Secretary to do whatever is in his power, as outlined by Mike Hedges, to take action against these companies that are taking advantage of residents and the housing shortage.

Darren Millar AC: I share absolutely all of the sentiments and views that have been expressed in the Chamber this afternoon so far. Like every Assembly Member and constituency, I also have estates with unadopted roads in my own area, the most prominent of which is the Sandy Cove estate, which the Deputy Presiding Officer will be familiar with. It's an estate of 250 bungalows that were built in the 1930s as holiday homes for wealthy people from around the UK to come and enjoy some time by the seaside in. But unfortunately, over a period of time, those homes have become permanent residences, and the company that built the estate has folded and left this legacy of all of these roads that, now, are in a very, very poor state of repair. It's not ducks we're seeing in those puddles, it's seagulls, predominantly, and unfortunately, many of the people who live on that estate—. There's a public health issue here, because many people who live on that estate are people with mobility problems, people with walking difficulties, other chronic illnesses, and the condition of those roads, the lack of pavements, the lack of drainage, the lack of even street lighting on those roads, is causing them,yes, anxiety, but also difficulties in just getting out. They are living in social isolation, many of them. They feel unsafe becauseit's dark. And of course this estate, to add to its woes, is also in a flood-riskarea, immediately behind the sea wall defences in Kinmel Bay. It's been flooded on multipleoccasions in recent years. So, it's in a pretty sorry state of affairs.
Now, to be fair to the local authorityand others, they have tried to do what they can to support those residents. They've tried to look at what the cost of bringing those roads up to an adoptable standard might be, and the latest estimateis that it would be around £3 million, which is obviously a significant sum of money for 250 home owners to be able to find. In fact, it's nigh on impossible for them to raise that sort of sum in order to get those roads up to an adoptable standard.
And worse thanthat, of course, many of the peoplewho own those propertiesdon't actuallylive in them, they're rented out, becausethe value of those properties has been depressed as a result of the state of the road. So, obviously, they can be a lucrativesource of income for some potentially unscrupulous buy-to-let landlords. So, that further complicates the problem, becauseof course those buy-to-let landlords, so long as their rent is being paid, so long as the income is coming in, they're not reallyinterested in making any sort of contribution to bringingthose roads up to a standard that is even passable for motor vehicles in some places.Frankly, the situationis intolerable and we need to do somethingabout it.
A few years ago, back in 2011, I can remember being in this Assembly when the then environmentMinister took a very brave decision to use some powers that she had under the Water Act 2003 to transfer private sewers and lateral drains into the water system, which is of course the responsibilityof Welsh Water here. So, they were all basically adopted, whether they had been before or not. I think what we need is that sort of approach, frankly, with all of these historic unadopted roads, in order that we can solve this problem once and for all. Then, absolutely—as Mike and others have said—we need to change the planning system to make it a requirement that if an estate is going to be built, there has to be an adoptableroad that is accessible.
One of the things that really irritatesme on nearlyevery planning application I see these days is so-called 'private driveways'. You've seen them—where there's one single link road through the estate, whichis adopted, and then you have a private driveway that serves as an access to about 10 or 15 different properties, which is generally brick paved becauseit looks attractive, but within four or five years is startingto crumble, the dips are starting to appear in it, becauseit's not been made up to an acceptable standard. So, we're storingproblemsup for the future, and I do believethat the current review of the planningsystem that is under way in Wales gives us an opportunityto sort this out once and for all.
One thing I would like—if the CabinetSecretary is minded to establish a taskforce, whichis an idea that I very much welcome—is that that taskforcesorts out, in terms of priorities, which areas might need to be addressed first, because I can tell you now that I suspect very muchthat theSandy Cove estatein my own constituencywould be right near the top of that list, for the reasonsthat I'veoutlinedtoday. So, I encourage people to support the motion.

Vikki Howells AC: In rising to speak in support of this motion today, I will focus my remarks on the experiences of my constituents—my constituents who live not just on unadopted roads, but, as so many of my colleagues here have stressed today, on unadopted estates. I want to talk about the impact that the failure of developers to bring these estates up to adoptable standards is having on my constituents. Indeed, I don't think it's being overly dramatic to talk about the misery that this is causing.
I am at present dealing with three sizeable housing estates of so-called 'executive homes', all built by the same developer. This is one of the so-called 'big four' UK developers. I know other AMs have talked about the problems caused when house builders go into liquidation, but I am talkingabout a company here that remains one of the big four UK house builders. So, far from being unable to sort these issues out, they are too busy going on to build more houses in other locations, making millions and millionsof pounds,before they complete estates to proper adoptable standards.I'm not going to name the developer here today, but the comments that I make later on may hint at their identity.
As the motion notes, one of the most pressing problems relates to roads on these housing estates. As the roads have not been adopted, they're in an unsafe condition. This can cause damage to residents' cars, which I've taken on numerous pieces of casework about, but alsoinjury to residents, too. Again, I've taken on numerous cases involving that.In particular, in this example, it is not just the road that the developer has not bothered to finish: residents of the same estate of over 150 properties have had issues with their broadband provision; a promised playground has not been built; landscaping hasn’t taken place; and a pumping station hasn’t been completed. All of this has a negative impact—a very negative impact—on householders. And in this case where the housing estate was completed four years ago, it has left residents feeling very disappointed that the shiny, brand-spanking-new homes that they were promised have been dumped in what resembles little more than a building site. Some of the householders are so disappointed they've told me they want to move, but the poor condition of the estate means that they cannot do this because their homes have been devalued.
I'm dealing with two other estates, built by the same big housing developer. Here, residents face similar problems. In one case, the work needed to bring the estate up to an adoptable state hasn’t been completed 17 years after the houses were built. I want to re-emphasise that point—17 years, by a major UK house builder. That is just not acceptable.
Now, I've spoken to the house builder. I've met with their executives and received a warm and mollifying response. But in terms of action, nothing has changed. No progress has been made. My residents' queries, pleas and complaints have fallen on deaf years. And what makes these matters all the more galling is that the developer is already looking at a new site in my constituency. Yes, we need homes, but there is no duty on large-scale builders to ensure that works are completed before they move on, and I think this is very wrong.

Nick Ramsay AC: Would you like to take an intervention?

Vikki Howells AC: Yes.

Nick Ramsay AC: I agree totally with what you've just said, and you're placing the problem of unadopted roads within a wider problem: that we've got an increasing number of estates now run by management companies with services provided. I think you're exactly right: the developers move on to the next site without properly finishing what they've got already, and we should address that with legislation.

Vikki Howells AC: I couldn't agree with the Member more. If you take a school, for example, if a school was performing badly and not delivering results for its pupils, then action would be taken to ensure that it was brought up to standard. But in terms of the private sector, we don't have these powers currently, but we do have the ability through the planning review to look at this, and I think it's absolutely vital that we do so.
I know that the developer in question has also paid multimillion-pound bonds to the local authority, but that also seemingly has no impact either. And in many cases, the sums needed to bring these estates up to an adoptable standard is comparatively insignificant. For example, the estate that has been unadopted for 17 years, the housing developer there told me themselves that the one and only outstanding job would cost just a few thousand pounds to complete, yet nothing has happened.
At the same time as I was meeting that developer, lobbying for my constituents, they announced a bonus package of over £500 million for their top bosses. This may provide a clue to the developer’s identity. In addition, the package included over £100 million of personal bonus payments for their chief executive—for one man presiding over a companywhere they told me themselves they have over 40 unadopted estates in Wales.It is no surprise that this leaves a bad taste in my constituents’ mouths.
I'm delighted to support this motion today, and I'd like to echo Mike Hedges's call for the current review of planning in Wales to address this issue. I can only hope that it helps contribute to a resolution for my constituents.

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, I'd like to welcome this debate because following on from the debate on leasehold, it shows the importance of these types of debates that actually identify issues that have complete cross-party support, that relate to powers that we have where we can use those powers to make a real difference to people's lives. Leasehold was one, this was the other one.
Can I also thank David Melding for reminding me of the Law of Property Act 1925? [Laughter.]That wonderful revising piece of legislation that couldn't be contained in less than 1,000 pages and which propped up more bookshelves than I ever came across.I also thank Darren Millar, really, for his exposition of the iniquities of the capitalist system. [Laughter.]But, particularly thanks to Dai Lloyd for his almost Shakespearean exposition of the injustice that does exist.
There are just a number of simple points that I want to add. Firstly, planning permission. We know that whether they be maintained estates or whatever, it's just clearly the case that planning permission should not just be given. Just as we should not be allowing planning permission to be given to new properties with leasehold, exactly the same applies here as well.
Secondly, in terms of unfinished roads and responsibilities and so on for new properties, why can't we have a simple thing like a National House-Building Council certificate?You have that—something that gives a guarantee if the property developer goes bust, a guarantee in terms of rectificationof the structure. Why could you not have something exactly like that that gives that extension—? Because the crux of it is the lack of guarantees and deposits, so that if the developer disappears or doesn't fulfil it, the house purchaser can go along and say, 'Well, there is the money, there is the resource or the guarantee that enables this to be done.'It seems to me that that is the future.
The pointthat was made in terms of the companies themselves, because what they will sayis, of course, 'Ah, yes, but all these are things that add to cost and so on.' These property developers, they work on at least a 25per cent profit margin. This is it. This is exploitation of the worst kind, and the fact that you have one director of one of these companies with many properties in Wales, some of which are getting a bonus of £150 million—.I mean, it is out of control and it is absolutely outrageous. It is a public scandal.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Just a very brief intervention—thank you very much. In the case of Llys Tegeirian inLlangristiolus on Anglesey that I mentioned earlier, different property holders have taken out different insurance schemes against possible losses or the defaulting of the developer down the line. Would what you're proposing, a uniform plan, get around that issue of different householders, due to the different legal advice that they're getting, paying out different sumsto try to get around the problem?

Mick Antoniw AC: Absolutely. I mean, the Government stepped in to force insurers, for example, to deal with uninsured vehicles, cars,with the Motor Insurers' Bureau. The NHBCis also a similar product of that, and why should that not be extended in exactly the same way? It seems to me to be a relatively simple solution. We talked about the profitability of the house building companies.These are the same companies that said it was not viable to put sprinklers in our houses to prevent those houses being burnt down and they wouldn't build houses that sold.Sooner or later, they've got to be taken to task.
So, the crux is—I agree very much—it's an area where there is legislation that's justified,we do need a strategy, and this is an area where we can make a real difference to people's lives in Wales.

Michelle Brown AC: I agree with the concern expressed by the motion that some developers have not been building roads to an adoptable standard, leaving the costs of bringing the road up to standard firmly on the doorstep of the homebuyer or, alternatively, saddling homebuyers with ongoing maintenance costs. I'm therefore very pleased to be able to speak in support of the motion. Others, including particularly Dai,have covered historic unadopted roads extensively, so I want to talk about new-build estates.Please forgive me if I duplicate what's already been said, because I am agreeing with you all, pretty much.
For the most part, if not for all homebuyers,the house buying process is exactly that—the process of buying a house or a home, not buying a piece of road or working out how to maintain it. Whilst it's true that professional advisers will advise their homebuying clients about the implications of the roads not being adopted, the buyer isn't in a position to assess how much it will cost them and to be able to properly assess the risk to them of the roads not being adopted. Furthermore, by the time the buyer has that conversation with their adviser, in whatever form that conversation may take, the buyer has made a financial and emotional investment, and an investment of time, in buying the home. It's very, very hard to walk away from buying that property, and it's impossible to do so if that's the only home you can afford.
But I disagree that the problem lies solely in a weakness in the house buying process.Surely this is a problem caused primarily by a weakness in the planning consent process, which has been highlighted by pretty much everybody who's spoken today.It seems to me that the time to address adoption of a development'sroads is at the time of planning consent by the local authority. My view would be that, if a developer wants to build a housing estate and take the profit that arises from it, that same developer should ensure that the roads on the development are of a standard to be adopted by the local authority. Local residents shouldn't be expected to carry the onus of taking that process forward and upgrading the road, hoping the council will take the road on.
The big question for me, and part of it has been answered today, is why planning departments at local authorities haven't already been stipulating that roads need to be constructed to an adoptable standard—it has been answered, I know—and why highways departments at the same local authorities have not been addressing this for years. But this has been going on for donkeys. Planning was devolved some time ago, so the logical question here is: why has Welsh Government not already addressed this? This has been going on for years.
So, the idea of a taskforce is an excellent one, I think. This issue isn't simple, and proper consideration of the options needs to be given, including the amendment or creation of appropriate planning legislation. So, I'm therefore supporting this motion. Thank you.

Thank you. I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by thanking Members across the Chamber for their contributions and the opportunity to respond to what I think has been an enlightening and informative debate with no dissent from the central position that a problem needs solving in Wales. Now, firstly, of course, I need to be absolutely clear that we as a Government are responsible for the motorway and trunk roads in Wales. We do not have jurisdiction over local roads or unadopted roads. But I do sympathise very, very deeply with people who find themselves in the position of having bought a new home, only to find that the road outside is in an unadopted condition, and I think we can all agree that this is unacceptable.
I myself live on an estate that is accessed by an unadopted road, and we've set up a management company as residents, as neighbours. But, for the reasons that Dai Lloyd outlined, many people can't afford this, or it's not a suitable solution. I hasten to add I've never been told to get a life by anyone on my management company, because it is a resident-run company. I have to say I've been utterly shocked by some of the stories that I've heard today about the way that constituents of Members in this Chamber have been treated.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I have copious notes with me that perhaps I should be reading through concerning the rights of home owners and tenants, but, quite frankly, I think it's worth cutting to the chase, because the problem associated with unadopted roads is both a local and national issue. In my view, it therefore justifies a national approach to ensure a consistent approach across all authorities. Coming up with a solution requires input from many key players, including, but not limited to, Welsh Government, local highway and planning authorities, national parks, the legal profession, developers, the National House-Building Council and mortgage companies.
There are two areas that require consideration: there is the here-and-now issue around bringing existing unadopted roads to adoptable standards, and then there is also the need to develop a way that avoids existing issues being repeated in future developments. I accept that the Welsh Government has an important role to instigate this change, and so I'm very pleased to be able to inform Members today that I have asked my officials to seek discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association on the development of a taskforce to resolve this problem across our country. Working with key partners, we will review the current position and we will come up with recommendations on how we can address and avoid, in the future, the issues experienced by house buyers that have been outlined by Members across the Chamber today. As I've said before in relation to other infrastructure in Wales, whilst Welsh Government is not the cause of the problem, we most certainly can offer a cure.

Thank you very much. Can I call on Dai Lloyd to reply to the debate, please?

Dai Lloyd AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think in this debate we've seen the National Assembly for Wales at its best, frankly. This is an issue of national importance, and it demands a national approach, as the Cabinet Secretary has just outlined, and I'm very pleased with his response, agreeing to the central tenet of a taskforce where we bring everybody together who's got interest and knowledge and, in fact, a duty to sort this issue out.
For too long, this issue has been ignored. My case load over 20, 25 years as an elected representative runs into hundreds, now, on this particular issue. I didn't realise that everybody else's case load also runs into hundreds as well. I haven't had ducks yet, but it's only a matter of time. But it does bring about huge emotion and passion as well, because I've been in so many meetings over the years where people have just said, 'Well, sorry, there's nothing that can be done,' you know. And you're an elected representative and you want to help people, and there's a problem there, and people say, 'Ah, well, it's not in planning' and all the rest of it. Well, things need to change. Things need to change. I'm very pleased with this debate this afternoon. We've come together. We've decided there's a huge issue here. Emotions have run high. Our constituents are getting abused. There's no stronger term. There's an issue that needs sorting. I mean, I was talking to somebody who said, 'Dai, unadopted roads—that's not earth-shattering, is it?' Well, I've just discovered just how earth-shattering it is, frankly, because, if you are a house owner with frontage on an unadopted road, it is a huge issue. So, I'm very grateful—. Mike.

Mike Hedges AC: All I was going to say is, of course, a number of people living on unadopted roads don't know those roads are unadopted until they have a problem.

Dai Lloyd AC: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you very much, indeed, Mike, and you were the first speaker as well, so thank you very much. Indeed, one of the tenets that the taskforce needs to look at is a change in planning consent, is a change in planning law. I think we've heard a lot of comments about that. David Melding, in his own wonderful way, took us, obviously, back, further back than some of us would like to remember, or even can remember, in 1925. But the 92 km of unadopted roads in Cardiff was an interesting statistic, being as that's the most up-to-date statistic I've had this afternoon, really. Lynne Neagle, thank you very much indeed with the duck—that'll remain in the memory—and your steady stream of complaints as well. Because, yes, it's a steady stream of complaints that you feel unable to sort out, but the complaints keep coming.

Dai Lloyd AC: Siân Gwenllian: the new estate, Caeau Gleision estate. Well, it's not a new estate—it's 40 years old—with a number of roads there that re unadopted. No ducks there.

Dai Lloyd AC: David Rowlands, thank you very much indeed for your contribution—and Nick Ramsay—emphasising the real health and safety issues and the need to change the planning law. And a very powerful presentation, once again, from Hefin David here, about the huge number of unadopted roads and the abuse suffered by constituents, and the same point made by Rhun as well. So, it's obviously—. It's pan-Wales, how people are treated, with a very honest problem that demands resolution.
Thank you again to Darren Millar, outlining the same issues again, in Kinmel Bay, with the poor condition of roads, with the frail and elderly people—seagulls this time, not ducks—but obviously the huge, unaffordable costs to adopt, and we need innovative solutions.
Diolch yn fawr, Vikki. Thank you very much indeed, Vikki. And also the point that it's unadopted estates as much as unadopted roads, and that house builders—. It's not just about the house builders that have gone into liquidation; it's about the house builders that are very much nowhere near going into liquidation that are profiting on this experience. And similar points made by Mick as well, in terms of linking it with the leasehold issue as well, and the change in planning. And that national insurance situation is something, again, a national taskforce could bring together. And thank you, also, Michelle Brown, for also making that planning consent point as well, particularly on the new build estates.
And, as I started, reiterating thanks to the Cabinet Secretary for responding positively to what has been a very powerful debate withwholesale support from all sides—yes, we've had some high emotion and passion and stuff, but it does show this National Assembly to be a true national body when we can come together with our local challenges and demand a national solution. So, support the motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

Thank you. The question is—the proposal is to propose the motion is accepted. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is carried.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee's report into loneliness and isolation

The next item is the debate on the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee's report on loneliness and isolation. I call on Dai Lloyd to move the motion. Dai.

Motion NDM6654Dai Lloyd
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the report of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee on loneliness and isolation, which waslaidin the Table Office on 7 December 2017.

Motion moved.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to open this debate today on the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee's report on loneliness and isolation. As we all know, loneliness and isolationaffect anyone at any stage in their lives. There is evidence to suggest that loneliness and isolation can have a significant impact on our physical and mental health. It can cause depression, sleep issues and even cardiac problems. I’m sure that we’ve all heard the statistic that experiencing loneliness and isolation can be as bad for you as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So, by reducing the number of people who experience these issues, we should help to reduce the demand for health and social services.

Dai Lloyd AC: The committee agreed that one of our early priorities would be to look at the scale, cause and impact of loneliness and isolation. While we are acutely aware that many other groups of people experience feelings of loneliness and isolation, this inquiry has predominantly focused on older people. Wales has a higher percentage of older people within its population than any other part of the UK. We hear that 18 per cent of people in the UK feel lonely 'always' or 'often', which is the equivalent of almost 458,000 people here in Wales. This figure is particularly worrying as we were told that many older people are too embarrassed to admit to feelings of loneliness. The figure could, in fact, be significantly higher.
Between January and March last year, we ran a public consultation. We received 39 written responses, representing a range of healthcare organisations, professional groups and third sector organisations. We heard oral evidence from a number of witnesses, and I took part in a Facebook Live broadcast to launch the inquiry, encouraging viewers to share their thoughts on the prevalence of loneliness and isolation and the potential causes.
Committee members also took part in focus group sessions in Newport as part of the Senedd@Newport programme. We met with people experiencing loneliness and isolation and those involved in initiatives to support them. It was with great pleasure that we were able to return to Horton’s Coffee House in December to launch our report and to hear from this same group of people about what they thought of our findings. I would like to thank everyone who contributed to our inquiry.
Now, turning to the conclusions and recommendations of the committee, we’ve made six recommendations to the Welsh Government, which we hope will contribute towards delivering the solutions needed to address this important issue. I would like to thank the Minister for the positive response to the committee’s work.
Our first recommendation relates to the Welsh Government’s commitment to develop a cross-government, national approach to tackling loneliness and isolation. We welcome this commitment, however, we are concerned that it is not due to be delivered until 2019, by which time so many more of our older citizens will have experienced the adverse effects of loneliness and isolation.
The importance of addressing loneliness and isolation cannot be underestimated, particularly given its impact on health and social care services. Given the increasingly ageing population of Wales, action is needed now to prevent the situation worsening. We are particularly concerned about the over-80s age group.
As I’ve mentioned, proportionately, Wales has more people in this age range than any other part of the UK. People in this group can potentially be at greater risk of becoming lonely and socially isolated as a result of increasingly complex health needs and limited mobility, which in turn impacts on their ability to engage in a wide range of social activities.
We have, therefore, recommended that the Welsh Government review the timescales for the development of its strategy, with a view to publication before 2019, which the Minister has partially accepted. We recognise the scale and breadth of the challenge ahead of us in tackling this issue and we welcome the Minister’s commitment to keep this timescale under review and to take action, where possible, earlier than 2019.
A number of respondents to our inquiry commented on the ways in which loneliness and isolation affects the use of public services. For example, we heard that people experiencing loneliness and isolation are more likely to visit their GP, to take higher rates of medication, to be at a greater risk of falls, to have a greater likelihood of entering residential care, and to make more use of accident and emergency services.
Many of these services are already available; we need to concentrate on raising awareness and facilitating access to them. We heard that low-level intervention for people experiencing loneliness and isolation could be of benefit. Ironically,the restrictionson public sector finances mean that it's these services that are most likely to be cut.There was also a suggestion that interventions of this kind could lead to savings for the public purse in the long term. However, there's no robust evidence at present to support this suggestion. We've therefore suggested that the Welsh Government should undertake or commission work to assess the impact of loneliness and isolation on health and well-being, and whether people experiencing these issues make increased use of public services. That was recommendation 3.
As the Minister notes in his response to the recommendation, avoiding an escalation in people's needs to a point where they become chronic and long-term is central to reducing avoidable pressure on public services. I am grateful for the acceptance of this recommendation and commitment to supplement the evidence provided to the committee through commissioning independent targeted research on the use made of public services by people experiencing loneliness and isolation and the associated costs of this.
Recommendation 4 relates to funding for the voluntary sector.The pivotal role of voluntary groups in providing the wide range of activities and support that help address loneliness and isolation is widely acknowledged, and we were impressed by much of the work that we heard about. Voluntary bodies are uniquely placed to respond to the needs of local communities and to draw on local resources, such as volunteer staff. However, the short-term nature of these funding schemes and the complexity of obtaining a grant can present a challenge to these smaller organisations. Too often, successful projects are forced to close when funding ceases. We therefore believe that funding needs to offer greater continuity and stability to voluntary sector services—for at least three years—if they are to have an enduring impact in local communities.
It's disappointing that the Minister has only partially accepted this recommendation, as we heard from those providing these vital services how staff motivation can be affected by small-scale and short-term funding, and the need to regularly seek new sources of funding. However, I do welcome his assurance that the development of an approach to tackle loneliness and isolation will include further work with the voluntary sector and local government to determine what more can be done to establish financial stability for key services.
We were impressed with the evidence that we heard on intergenerational contact, which can sometimes be more beneficial than contact with one's own age group. We know that there are pockets of good practice happening around Wales, and believe that the benefits of such schemes need to be evaluated, with a view to rolling them out more widely. We have therefore recommended that the Welsh Government should undertake an evaluation to assess the impact of intergenerational contact on people experiencing loneliness and isolation. That was recommendation 5. If the evaluation highlights benefits of such contact, the Welsh Government should ensure that best practice in this area is rolled out across Wales.
To conclude, I would like to turn to the issue of stigma, mentioned in recommendation 6. One of the biggest issues we came across was stigma. People are too ashamed to admit that they are lonely, so the extent of this problem could be much worse than is currently assumed. This is particularly true amongst men, who present a much higher suicide risk. We also heard about the cycle of loneliness, where people are too embarrassed to admit that they need more help and they withdraw from society. The more disengaged they become, the more likely they are to become lonely and isolated, and the less likely they are to access the help they need.
We are all very aware of the excellent work of Time to Change Wales in making it easier to talk about mental health. Our recommendation, therefore, calls for a similar campaign to change public attitudes towards loneliness and isolation. As the Minister rightly points out, although loneliness and isolation have received increased national attention through the work of groups such as the Campaign to End Loneliness, Age UK and the British Red Cross, there remains work to do to raise public awareness. So, I welcome his positive response to this recommendation, and I look forward to the development of a national awareness campaign. I look forward to the debate. Thank you very much.

Diolch. I do have a number of speakers for this debate. With the last debate, many of you actually didn't take the full five minutes, which allowed more of your colleagues to come in. So, perhaps I could just askyou to think about that and we'll try and get everybody in. Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Loneliness and isolation might have been seen as a peripheral subject a few years ago, and I am pleased that we have prioritised it in the health committee and that there is growing public awareness of the damage loneliness can do to our health. We are all becoming familiar with the public health impact of loneliness and isolation such as the often-quoted statistic that it can be as damaging for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. But, I wanted to focus my remarks today on the fact that loneliness and isolation are a significant risk factor for suicide.
When Samaritans Cymru gave evidence to the committee, they said that they wanted to move the actions that are taken to tackle loneliness into a much more serious space, and I believe that is crucial, because tackling loneliness and isolation saves lives. Yesterday, I, along with other Members, attended the launch of the Samaritans Cymru report on socioeconomic disadvantage and suicidal behaviour in Wales. The report makes 10 concrete recommendations on how Wales can reduce the number of suicides. I could spend at least five minutes talking about each one, and I hope that Members will pursue the recommendations in this excellent report in the months ahead. But, as I have only five minutes, I wanted to highlight one message from the report—that community groups should be seen as a form of prevention and early intervention for loneliness, isolation and social support in Wales, and that policy solutions should be worked up to increase community participation. Being connected to others saves lives.
I really welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to tackling loneliness as a national priority, but we now need to see that translated into real action. Some Government policies in recent years have been going in a different direction. The Communities First programme was raised with the committee in evidence. Often criticised for fostering softer initiatives rather than hard-edged employment-focused ones, it is often those kinds of projects that are essential in delivering the connectedness that is so vital in tackling isolation. In September, for example, I attended the Gofal Gwent service user forum, and I met service users there with serious mental health problems, who told me that they wouldn't have been able to leave the house without the support of their local Men's Sheds group, previously funded by Communities First. 
I was grateful to Rebecca Evans as the previous Minister for her engagement with me about the threat to funding for Let's Walk Cymru. I know that she understood, as I do, that such groups are not just about physical health. For many of the walkers in my constituency, Let's Walk has been a vital way to tackle loneliness, often after the loss of a spouse. I'm delighted that the funding has been continued, but it should not have been under threat. We must make sure that our commitment to tackling loneliness cuts across Welsh Government policies.
On Friday, a lady came to my surgery who was deeply worried that the pressures on adult education funding had led to charges being introduced for people who were on benefits to attend her local art class, some of whom had disabilities. Again, for some of those people, that art class is a lifeline. Now, we all understand the massive financial pressures we face, but we need to view these decisions on an invest-to-save basis. The costs of social isolation and, indeed, suicide are much, much higher. We have to match our rhetoric on prevention with action.
I wanted to conclude by talking about young people. There is a perception that loneliness and isolation is mainly a problem for older people. It is not. Samaritans Cymru told us of a Mental Health Foundation survey that found that 18 to 34-year-olds are more likely to feel lonely often, to worry about feeling alone and to feel depressed about loneliness than the over-55s. They told us that there is increasing evidence that social media may be causing loneliness and depression in teenagers, and that a recent study on using social media for two hours a day doubled the chance of a person experiencing social isolation. The Children's Commissioner for England recently published a report into social media use by 8 to 12-year-olds called 'Life in Likes', which found that even very young children are becoming overdependent on likes and comments for social validation. It is impacting on their mental health, and that has also been a strong message in our committee inquiry into the emotional and mental health of children and young people in Wales.
This matters, not just because we want our young people to have good mental health, but because young people are a high-risk group for suicide. It is a national scandal that four schoolchildren die by suicide every week in the UK.Papyrus, the prevention of young suicide charity, as part of their campaign to reduce the number of suicides among schoolchildren, called Save the Class of 2018, have launched a campaign to raise awareness of the impact of negative social media on our young people. They have produced a very hard-hitting film calledBedtime Stories,which encourages us all to be aware of the impact of social media. I would encourage everyone here, especially those of us who are parents, to watch it. Thank you.

Angela Burns AC: To be honest with you, what I was going to say I think both Dai and Lynne have covered extremely well.So, my message to you, Minister, is along these lines: when I took part in this committeeinquiry, I was absolutely staggered to understand just how big this problem is.Not very long ago, we passed a public health Bill, and we talked about trying to make people slimmerand fitter, and make sure that there were looseverywhere, but we didn't actually talk enough about how we make sure that, no matter what age you are, you feel integrated into a society that's becoming increasingly frantic and frenetic. And I think that, for those who are not part of our inner caucus, it is worth just saying what the difference is between loneliness and isolation. I'd like to give you an example of one particular case I have at the moment.
So, you can be lonely if you are an older person and you're in a care home, and you're surrounded by loads of other people, and they're all saying, 'Come on, let's go off to the aromatherapy, and let's go and watch telly, and let's do bingo', but if you've never been a joiner-inner,if you've never been adept at building your social networks, if you've never had that emotional resilience, then why are you suddenly going to develop it at 75 or 80, or 65, or whatever it is, usually when you've lost your significant other? Because that's when the loneliness really bites.
Isolation is when you are literally missing the contact around you. You could be a farmer stuck up a track. Or, in fact, you could be like a gentleman that I have in my constituency, and he lives in a very large town—I won't identify it too much, because I don't want to give away his identity.But he lives in a little bungalow that's on the edge of a very busy road. He sees nobody. However, he sees the world: he sees the cars going by, he sees the schoolkids to queueing up for the bus, and he feels a little bit of a connection. Unfortunately, the person who owns his property is going to sell it, and he is going to be moved away. And, you know, the housing association very kindly want to go and pop him into a nice little bungalow, but where he won't see anybody, where, once that door closes, that's it; he's on his own, he is truly, truly isolated. And I will predict that that elderly gentleman, with his enormous widescreen tv—because that's all he has, and I've been to his house—because that's his companion, from nine in the morning when he switches it on until he goes to bed at night, he's just going to become more lonely, he's going to become more isolated, he's going to become more depressed, and he will eventually start having to lean on us, on our social services, on our healthcareas his health plummets. And if I took away nothing from that committee report, it was about how we need to support people in their older age.
And I do just want to pick up one point that Lynne made.Although our report, or our inquiry, focused on older people,we cannot forget the young, because the danger of social media is that we forget how to make relationships. We click on Facebook or Twitter, or whatever it is, and wow, we'vegot 450 friends. Of course, they're not real friends.They don't know who your mum is. They don't know if you've got a dog. They don't know what you likefor your tea. But you think they're friends.And we are rearing a generation that is actually making very shallow connections. So, what happens when that young generation becomes our middle-aged generation and then our older generation? Because then they will truly understand what loneliness and isolation is all about, when they look to Facebook and actually find those 400-odd friends really, really don't exist—they're a chimera.
So, I think it's really important. And I would beg you to please bring forward your strategy as soon as possible. And in your partial acceptance of recommendation 1, when you said that, in the meantime, you would look to try to grow good projects, we saw plenty of good projects in our committee,fromMen's Sheds to Ffrind i Mi to community connectors—the whole plethora. They need support, they need encouragement, they need empowerment, and I would ask you to do that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Very rarely in my life, I think, have I truly felt alone. I'm very lucky in that respect, and I do hope that most people in this place would have similar experiences, although having many people around you doesn't necessarily mean that you can't also feel lonely and isolated. That is something that we learnt during our inquiry, which was certainly an education for me and, I know, to my fellow Members. What the report that we have does, of course, is remind each and every one of us, whatever our personal experiences may be, that loneliness and isolation are very serious issues that impact on very many people, and constituents of each and every one of us in this Chamber today.
I'm grateful to those who have been contacting us over the past few days before this debate. The British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapists reminds us that 25 per cent of older people can feel lonely and isolated, and that is a huge number, particularly, as we've already heard from the committee Chair, where this has an impact on people's health—it doesn't just make you feel slightly depressed, and that you'd want to have some company, but it can have a serious impact on mental and physical health. Another group that's been in touch is Age Cymru, who talked about the amenities and the resources that have been lost, or are at risk of being lost, because of financial pressures, including public transport, and that there are things that we can do to invest in tackling loneliness and isolation.
But I will just make a few comments very briefly on two specific recommendations. The final one—having a communications background, messaging is something that's very important to me. Recommendation 6 talks about awareness raising and changing attitudes towards loneliness and isolation, and addressing the stigma associated with them. I was reminded of a tweet that I saw—and I have it on the screen in front of me—it was around a month ago, a little under a month ago, from a good friend of mine, She is a well-known individual, Ffion Dafis, the actress and presenter, and what she said in her tweet, and it struck me at the time, is
'Because of the nature of my work, I have free days on occasion when I could be visiting people who are alone but I don't know who or where I should contact.'
And she makes an appeal for information, and I thought, 'Yes, how often have I heard someone say something like that?' Not very often at all, certainly by people from my own generation. There are ways in which we can all, through having awareness of loneliness and the need to tackle it, play our part in addressing that loneliness, by contacting and offering companionship to people. The response to the tweet was very interesting, with many people proposing ways in which Ffion and others could give of their time. There are organisations—chapels, health boards and charities of all sorts—that provide routes for individuals to assist people through their loneliness.
But that brings us to our first recommendation, namely the need to have a strategy in place to address loneliness, because this is the role of Government: to provide guidance and leadership to all of those organisations and individuals who understand the scale of the problem of loneliness in terms of the steps that we could be taking to address it. I'm pleased that the Governmenthas responded positively, accepting or accepting in principle the recommendations made by our committee, but I do think that what I've heard, and what fellow Members have heard, certainly demonstrates that we do have an acute problem in Wales in terms of the scale of loneliness and isolation. My appeal is that the Government should show that leadership as soon as possible by publishing a strategy that will truly make a difference.

Caroline Jones AC: I would like to place on record my thanks to the committee clerks and all those who gave evidence to our committee during the course of our inquiry, and to our dedicated Chair. It is a sad indictment of our society when you consider that around one in five of people in Wales are lonely. Over half of people aged over 25 live alone and research by Age UK found that many older people can go five or six days without speaking to a single person. Research shows that loneliness and social isolation are as damaging to our health as smoking three quarters of a pack of cigarettes a day. Loneliness increases the chances of an early death by around 45 per cent and is associated with an increased risk of developing coronary heart disease and stroke. Lonely individuals are also at higher risk of the onset of disability and also suicide.
In a work capacity, someone once said to me, 'You're asking me to confide in you and to tell you whatis wrong, but you don't know of my yesterdays or even my todays, but you can help me maybe have a better tomorrow.' It is therefore incumbent upon us all to make peoplefeel worth while and wanted. I was therefore delighted when our committee opted to undertake an inquiry into loneliness and isolation, given the real public health concerns.
Witnesses to our inquiry all underlined the health impacts of loneliness and isolation as well as outlining the myriad causes of and contributory factors to loneliness and isolation. One thing was clear: although loneliness can strike at any age, it is particularly heartfelt in our older population. Closure of post offices, banks, local shops, community services, public toilets, and the growing trend to automation have all contributed to a situation whereby many older people go days and weeks without speaking to another human being.
We also learnt of the fantastic work being undertaken by voluntary groups across Wales to address loneliness and end isolation by providing a whole raft of activities and support services—Men's Sheds, for example. Whether it's Ffrind i Mi in south-east Wales, Welcome Visitor at Home in south-west Wales, Ponthafren in mid Wales, or Contact the Elderly in north Wales, these organisations, and hundreds like them, plug the gaps left by our shrinking social care sector. They are pivotal in addressing loneliness and isolation.It is our job to ensure that these groups are supported and funded to continue doing what they do, across every part of Wales.
Our committee recommended that the Welsh Government works with the voluntary sector and local government to secure the funding stability needed by these organisations by introducing three-year funding programmes. I had hoped the Welsh Government would fully accept all six of our recommendations. It is therefore disappointing that the Welsh Government could not fully commit to this recommendation. You accept that short-term funding can be costlier, but wish the flexibility to make short-term decisions. Short-term decisions based on financial pressures are just the sort of decisions we have to move away from.
Welsh Government are proud of their invest-to-save programme. Well, the London School of Economics have undertaken research that shows that every £1 invested in addressing loneliness and isolation can save £3 in costs to our NHS. These voluntary organisations are a lifeline to our older people and deserve Government support. I urge the Welsh Government to reconsider and to accept all of our recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

Dawn Bowden AC: I think I would be agreeing with virtuallyall the comments that have already been made this afternoon. There was a great deal of consensus in the committee, and we heard some very powerful evidence from a number of organisations and bodies that led us to our report and the recommendations in it.

Dawn Bowden AC: For my contribution, I just want to really make some general observations on the issues around isolation and loneliness, rather than focusing on any of the specific recommendations, because it's a huge irony, isn't it, in the days of the internet, of knowing that people can FaceTime each other from four corners of the globe, that on our very doorsteps, here in our communities, we find the problems of loneliness and isolation.
I think this partly reflects the stresses placed on the social fabric of our communities. Too much of the public realm, too many of those things that we all hold for the common good, are being sacrificed in these times of austerity, and surely it's for all of us to place a far higher premium on retaining those shared spaces that allow people to make connections with each other. And by shared spaces, I don't just mean the physical buildings, important as they are, but also those networks that bring people together.After all, it is the social networks that provide the foundations of so much care and resilience.
So, while the inquiry established that the problems of loneliness and isolation are most commonly associated with older people, and that was very much what we concentrated on, the issues outlined in this report do affect a wide range of other groups, and Angela Burns touched on that, as did Lynne Neagle. I'm pleased that the committee will be doing some further work on this as well, but it would be good if the Minister can confirm that the Welsh Government will secure a cross-departmental approach in the forthcoming strategy that will address the wider issues of isolation and loneliness across other groups in society, including ex-service personnel, single parents, young people, as we've already heard from, to name but a few, because the report shows why investing in measures to prevent isolation and loneliness makes good economic sense for all parts of Government.
We've already heard about invest-to-save—that's been mentioned by a number of speakers today—and this is an invest-to-save activity. If we can help to provide people with stronger networks, then we're less likely to have to tackle the acute deterioration of physical and mental health conditions associated with this problem, conditions that in the most extreme circumstances, as Lynne Neagle has already said, can lead to the tragedy of suicide and other forms of self-harm.
Now, as Dai Lloyd mentioned in his opening remarks, one of the most enlightening areas of our inquiry for me was the importance—it was evidenced—of inter-generational contact as a simple cost-effective, and I'll use the word 'therapy', for want of a better word. That allows me, I think, to briefly mention a project that I had some personal involvement with that showed the value of that inter-generational activity.
Shortly before Christmas, Merthyr and Tredegar Only Boys Aloud choir visited care homes in the area to sing Christmas songs and carols with residents as part of their Home for Christmas initiative, linking young and older people together through music and song. And I had the great pleasure of joining those young boys to sing a song or two at the Greenhill Manor Care Home in Merthyr Tydfil. The main point of that was to give me the chance to witnessthe mutual pleasure of older and younger people joined together in the simple joy of music and song. And what I saw there was joy and healing in progress, and for a few short hours people enjoying social connections, irrespective of their age. It was an absolute pleasure to witness it, and it was a pleasure to be part of it.
In 2016, Llywydd, I was very proud to campaign on a manifesto that committed to addressing the issues of isolation and loneliness, so I am pleased that the Government has responded positively to our report as they bring forward their strategy. And in closing, Llywydd, I also believe that in bringing forward a clear plan of action for Wales, we will pay our rightful respects to the former MP Jo Cox, and the invaluable work of the foundation established in her name, which is continuing the work of the loneliness commission that Jo established to bring about a step change in the public policy response to the UK's loneliness crisis—a crisis that all of us, and not just Government, have a duty to address.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'm grateful to speak today on this crucial issue, following our committee report launch at Horton's Coffee House in Newport. Loneliness and social isolation is one of the defining issues of our time, an epidemic affecting all ages in all parts of our communities.
The impact of social isolation is alarming: 75,000 people in Wales report always or often feeling lonely; loneliness can be as damaging to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day; it can be as risky as obesity; and it can affect anyone at any time in our lives.While these worrying statistics go a long wayto show how significant the problem of loneliness is, I think it's the human stories that have really driven home the need for something to be done. Throughout our inquiry, we certainly heard those voices loud and clear. One particular story comes to my mind, which a GP shared with me.She'd been treating an elderly patient who was recovering after coming out of hospital. She had been visiting the patient once a week,and after a few weeks of regular visits, she told the woman that she had made a full recovery and no longer needed to regularly see the doctor. The woman was visibly upset to find this out. She didn't want the visits to end because the GP and the district nurses were the only people she saw from week to week. We heard other similar examples of the serious impact of social isolation and loneliness.
We know that any of us can become isolated or lonely as we grow older for many reasons, often beyond our control. Loneliness and isolation are both a cause and a consequence of problems with mental health and one that often fails to be addressed due to the stigma surrounding it. In fact, as Lynne Neagle mentioned, the report launched by the Samaritans yesterday highlighted loneliness and isolation as a risk factor for suicide.
Recommendation 6 states how vital it is that we end the stigma surrounding loneliness. Raising awareness should be the first step in tackling the issue itself. Many people don't want to be tagged with the word 'lonely', andfactors can mask a root cause. We can see from our engagement throughout our inquiry that there is a significant willand essential need to tackle this problem.
Our inquiry found that much good work is already being done across Wales. We heard from many organisations throughout the consultation, and I hosted a round-table discussion with Age UK in my constituency last summer to share examples of projects that are tackling loneliness and to see how best practice can be spread.
In recommendation 4, we made clear the need for Welsh Government to work with the voluntary sector to provide stability for the services that so many depend on. So much of this work is done by volunteers. One excellent example is Ffrind i Mi.It's a service in Aneurin Bevan health board led by divisional nurse Tanya Strange, who really is a force of nature.It aims to tackle loneliness and isolation by matching volunteers to people based on their hobbies and interests. The idea is to say, 'Let me introduce you to a friend of mine.'
Ada is a prime example. Adais 93 and became lonely and isolated after her husband died. She'd been a carer for her husband who had dementia for over 10 years and, like so many others, the commitment of caring meant that she had lost touch with her close friends.When her husband died, she found herself feeling isolated and alone. Ada was referred to Ffrind i Mi, and it helped her so much that Adais now a volunteer, helping others who feel so isolated and lonely. She meets another woman every week for a coffee and a chat in Newport city centre, and both reap the benefits of their new friendship.
The issue does not only affect our elderly, as other Members have said. Our report is wide reaching, but doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to loneliness amongst young people, veterans, new mothers, BMEgroups and the LGBTcommunity amongst others.I was shocked when I attended the Ffrind i Milaunch to recognise a face in the video. Rob Wiltshirewas two years younger than me at school and had gone on to join the army. Now a veteran in his 30s, he felt so far removed from his support network on his return to the UK that he battled with feelings of isolation and loneliness.He found Ffrind i Mi andhas gone from strength to strength. But while schemes like thismake an invaluable contributionto the lives of people like Ada and Rob, weneed to plan for the future and take a more holistic approach to dealing with loneliness and isolation, which is highlighted in our recommendation 2, and this is vital.
Another Newport resident, Carol Beaumont, said at our inquiry launch how important it is to be able to know about services easily, for example, through community connectors, and we need to use the rich resources that we already have in our communities and ensure that information is available and accessible for people wherever they may need it. We have a proud history of community in Wales, and we know that we have the highest proportion of older people in the UK. It's a public health issue that must be a national priority, and it needs to start now. Tackling it will not only improve people's lives, but it will help reduce demands for health and social services.

Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.I thank you for calling me in a long line of speakers, and I aim to be brief. I very much welcome the report and I also welcome the commitment from the Welsh Government Minister and his resolve to tackle the causes. The causes are manifold, and I'm not going to repeat all those ones that people have discussed today. But I do think that we need to remember that loneliness doesn't only reside in the elderly. Although it does reside in the elderly, it resides in any one, anywhere, of any age group, at any time, because it's, as Angela Burns so eloquently stated, very often a position you find yourself in.
But it is also connected, sometimes, to the facilities and services around you, and I have spoken here about bus regulation to try and ease the passage—I do use those words wisely—of transport for people in rural areas. Because if we can use those powers so that we don't end up in a situation where there's a stop-start position on bus travel in Mid and West Wales, with companies going bust, people can keep and maintain the companionship that they gain on public transport. The same is said of other services, like free swimming. I think it's those things that we need to join up now, where they're working for individuals, where people can access their services, their facilities and actually gain some friendship. We need to join them up together, and I hope that that will form part of what you do.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Can I thank the committee for actually working on this report? As the older people's champion for our party, this is a key issue, and it's something that I've worked with Sarah Rochira on. The sheer numbers of people reported as experiencing loneliness and isolation: 18 per cent of the UK population, equating to almost 458,000 people in Wales. Again, amongst older people, 25 per cent report being lonely, 27 per cent socially isolated. Seventy-five per cent of women and 66 per cent of men over 65 years of age are now living alone.
We often rush to think of older people in this regard, but this report, and evidence here today, show that this can impact on a much wider range of social groups. Our younger individuals are finding themselves worthless as a result of living alone, often resorting to social media as a means of dealing with the realities of isolation, and, quite often, this is their only means of actual communication with the outside world. LGBT and BME communities are really affected, bringing further isolation.
The cost of loneliness and isolation to our public services and productivity is £2.6 billion a year. There is a £427 million cost to our health service, not to mention the cost in real terms to the quality of life and longevity of each one of these individuals.
The relative ease and low cost of tackling this issue—and I say that because a lot of the issues we deal with here need Government resources. There's a lot we can do in terms of support, and we could all do, actually, within our own communities. Prevention is key, and the sooner we act, the better. Value for money in terms of investment is clear. The Eden Project estimates that disconnected communities cost the Welsh economy in excess of £1 billion a year in terms of lost productivity. Yet simple measures such as reinvesting in local and community transport and supporting buses, an area that has faced cuts of over £4.2 million, over 20per cent, since 2011—. So, whilst we're talking about it,we're actually seeing negative things coming forward that are making the situation worse. On our health and social services, in particular, the impact is considerable.
Tackling these issues could prevent otherwise unnecessaryGP appointments and visits, freeing up vital resources for our already stretched GPs. The additional associated health implications add to NHS pressures: depression, high blood pressure, increased risks of heart attack, stroke and dementia, to name but a few. We know that the British Red Cross estimates that the cost of increased service usage by older people experiencing loneliness as up to £12,000 per person over the next 15 years. And if you correlate that up to the numbers, we're talking—. This is a ticking time bomb.
The Eden Project has found that social cohesion currently saves £245 million annually in reduced demand on health services in Wales, and could save £681 million if action was undertaken nationwide: befriending, for example. I know I've raised it here before—is it the Silver Line? There's a phone line you can phone. Esther Rantzen started it up, and that's an extremely good project; I know people in my own constituency have used it. Intermediate care funding is used to support third sector organisations in Aberconwy, to run local friendship groups such as a regular watercolour class, and one of our local councillors now has hired a local church hall and does a monthly film show—Councillor Julie Fallon. And I'd like to pay credit to her for her initiative in ensuring that these lonely people who feel isolated can come together and watch a film together—a film that often brings back many happy memories for them.A number of groups have been identified by Alzheimer's Society Cymru.
Deputy Llywydd, last year, Fiona Phillips undertook an experiment whereby she spent five days alone to experience the effects of loneliness and isolation. After less than 24 hours without contact, she felt despondent and unimportant. By day 3, she was desolate. Day 4: tearful. And by day 5, she felt her self-worth had plummeted. This is a young lady who has a family around her. She tried the experiment for a week. It is an experiment that brought some reality into her life, and she had the support of her family. Imagine when you haven't got that family around you, so let's all do everything we can to support every single individual that is living alone and feels socially isolated.

Lee Waters AC: It is grimly ironic that we're holding a debate on loneliness on Valentine's Day, but as many have noted, it's a timely debate. I did not serve on the committee, but I think that the call to action is spot on. But I am frustrated that the solutions ignore the technological shifts that other countries around the world are seizing on.The three paragraphs of the report that do address the role of technology in tackling loneliness reference microwaves as inciters of isolation, and set out social media and FaceTime as 'future technologies and innovations'. Let’s get one thing straight: social media isn’t a 'future technology'. FaceTime is eight years old. The fact that it isn’t already in widespread use through the health and social services system should be a cause for concern, but let’s not allow ourselves to set our ambitions so low.
Because whilst we dither over whether a GP can handle Skype, other countries are trialling cutting edge artificial intelligence assistants—a sort of next-generation Siri. Luke Dormehl,in his book Thinking Machines, sets out some examples. He talks of aMicrosoft chatbot in China that responds to text messages that users send it, which has caught the attention of millions. Xiaoice—I believe it's pronounced—uses deep-learning techniques to scan the internet, looking at how humans interact. It uses this learning to create lifelike responses to texts that it gets sent. The bot tracks the lifestyles of its users, including if they're dating, their jobs, things they might be worried or anxious about, and refers back to these in later conversations, mimicking the behaviour of an old friend.In Japan, they’ve developed the world’s first therapeutic robot: a sociable baby seal that can look you in the eyes and which adapts its behaviour depending on how it is treated—a sort of twenty-first century Tamagotchi. The baby seal’s seeming ability to empathise with its users has been found to provide comfort, particularly amongst older people.
Now, Luke Dormehl isn’t suggesting that AI assistants will be able to replace all forms of human interaction, and neither am I, but there are clearly opportunities for technology to play a role.What troubles me in this report is that these opportunities are barely alluded to, because we should all be able to envisage how technology mighthelp people with dementia to stay in their homes, to retain their independence for a bit longer. The tech already exists to monitor behaviour to check, for example, if people are opening and closing cupboard doors more than they normally would, or leaving a long time before using the oven, to check if their behaviour is erratic. And we can also imagine tech that notices if somebody hasn't managed to dress themselves right or that translates slurred speech. This stuff is all within reach, so we should set our attentions to explore how tech might help us to end and ameliorate loneliness.
Downplaying the role of technology in this epidemic and reducing it to simple communication devices that are already a decade out of date, I think, is deeply problematic. As part of a package of measures, technology offers us cost-effective and sustainable means of tackling isolation and loneliness, and I would implore the Minister to look into this as a matter of urgency. Diolch.

And, finally, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for squeezing me in in the debate and I just wanted to say, really, that, like everyone else, I was deeply shocked at the figures that emerged. The thought that a quarter of older people in our country here in Wales feel that they are lonely, I think, is a very sobering thought, and I think that all the members of the committee felt very sobered by the extent of these figures and the fact that for the over-80s it was so much worse.
Many people have mentioned the fact that it's not just older people, and I do have particular concern about older people from the BME community and, indeed, anyone who has a language barrier, because I think that the problem of not being able to communicate easily is a huge problem for building up relationships, and I think that is something that we should be very aware of when we look into how we tackle this issue. Other people have also mentioned about the fact that Stonewall Cymru has highlighted the fact that lesbian, gay, bi and trans people are much more vulnerable to isolation and loneliness, and I knowthere have been some recommendations in the past about how those issues can be tackled.
So, it is something that is not restricted to older people. But I was particularly impressed by what Joyce Watson said in her speech when she spoke about the general things that can really help older people to not be isolated and not be lonely, and, of course, she mentioned transport and being able to travel around, and I think the provision of the bus pass has been one of the greatest achievements of this Assembly, because it has, in fact, freed people to be able to travel without any concern about how much money it might cost them. So, it's things like that, I think, that actually do make a universal difference, but I think are very effective, and I'd like us to think, really, of that sort of solution because there are many ways that we can mitigate against isolation and loneliness.
Toilets: lots of people have mentioned toilets. I had a huge petition collected on Whitchurch high street, mainly with older people going out and getting the signatures, to try to get a local toilet so that people would be able to go down to the high street, because so many older people have told me, 'Now there's nopublic toilets open there, we can't go out and we can't go shopping', so that is the wider issue. The general provision of public toilets, I think, is something that will also tackle that issue.
And, just finally, to end, I'd just like to mention some initiatives in my constituency of Cardiff North: I would like to praise Cardiff Council for their setting-up of the hubs. The two libraries in Llanishen and Llandaff North, which have been developed as hubs—developed very sensitively, very bright, very attractive, and really are an excellent place for older people to go. And then I was very pleased to visit, with the Minister, the independent living centre where we saw some of the technology that Lee Waters said in his speech—. Where, in fact, technology is being usedin this centre where you can monitor if somebody gets up or if somebody opens the window, and this is happening here in Cardiff very effectively. And that was quite an inspiring visit, I thought, and I'm sure the Minister would agree—Minister, that's right. Thank you very much for squeezing me in.

That's quite all right. I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care now—Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you to everyone. Thank you for the opportunity to reply to this important discussion. The quality and strength of the contributions this afternoon have shown that we're doing the right thing in ensuring that loneliness and isolation are a priority for the Welsh Government.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you all very much for some excellent contributions. I won't be able to do them all justice because they were so detailed and so extensive. It shows the complexity of the challenges we have in this area of tackling isolation and loneliness, but also the fact that we need to do this in an intelligent and a comprehensive and joined-up way.
What brought this home to me—as I suspect for many of us—were some of the instances we see in our own constituencies. Several years ago, at an election, knocking on the door, I met an elderly gentleman who—you could absolutely feel, tangibly, the sadness. This was somebody that I'd known from some years ago who, when his wife had passed away, had effectively locked the door. He was feeding himself, was looking after himself, but had no connection with any agencies, no support systems, was looking after himself, but was deeply, deeply sad and lonely. And it's haunted me ever since. But the flipside of that is many of the examples we've heard of today—of neighbourliness, of communities coming together, of things like the Men's Sheds movement, of simplerthings that we can all do ourselves—I have to say—as well. My mum and dad used to regularly go across the road on a Sunday and take Sunday dinner to an elderly neighbour, not because they felt, in any way, pity or whatever, but because it's the sort of thing you do in good communities that thrive. Perhaps we all need it.I'll turn to some of the Government strategies and some of the things we can do from here, but it's also to do with ourselves as well and what we do individually.
I would like to thank the committee, under the chairmanship of Dai Lloyd, for this important report into the inquiry into loneliness and isolation. I think it's helpful because it adds further evidence to what has already been building up our pool of knowledge about the clearly-debilitating effects of loneliness and isolation. The point has been made by several contributors today that loneliness and isolation can affect anyone at any agefor a wide variety of reasons. Understandably, this inquiry focused its initial efforts mainly on the challenges faced by older people, but it can affect all ages.
We've heard loneliness and isolation described as a public health emergency. Evidence shows—and this evidence, by the way, goes back to studies that were done in the 1920s and 1930s—that good relationships, those networks, that connectivity, whatever word we want to throw at it, keeps us happier and healthier, and those who feel lonely are more likely to see their physical health decline earlier and to die younger. We can all appreciate how important it is to feel a sense of belonging in our communities, amongst our friends, amongst our neighbours, and to feel a sense of worth, that our lives mean things to other people.
So, my written response to the committee's excellent report sets out my detailed reply to the six recommendations. I know that everybody's had a chance to read them, because they've been touched on so much today. We've accepted each recommendation either fully or, in two cases, partially.Let me just turn to those two cases where we've accepted the recommendations, but with some provisos.One of them is the timescale, as has been mentioned. We partially accepted this. The reason for this is quite clear. If we can, we will keep this under review, and, if we can bring it forward earlier than the spring of 2019, we will. But even the committee itself recognises that there's some more research and evidence gathering in certain key areas to be done. We want to do that properly, and in some areas we want to consult properly and formally as well. If that means we have to take a little bit longer, we will, but we'll keep that under review.
The second thing to say is quite clearly—and in the response to the committee, I said this—that doesn't mean we can't act now. We get on with doing the things. We are doing things now and we should escalate them. We should accelerate them. So, we get on with acting right now. It doesn't have to wait for a strategy in 2019. We can already take forward actions, and I'll turn to some of those in a moment.
The second aspect that we accepted, but partially, was the funding stability for the third sector. A few Members mentioned this. In an ideal world, you'd simply say, with great largesse, 'Here's the funding. Here's the stability you need for three years. Go ahead'. There are implications of that, and some of the implications of that are, well, twofold—two big examples. One is flexibility, because the third sector also will ask usfor flexibility for funding for innovation, for new initiatives—the sort of things, perhaps, that Lee, you were talking about; some new drive that's needed, and it needs some pump-priming money. But the other aspect that we need to be very conscious of here is that, in trying to give that security of funding, which we will look at and we will cast our thoughts to, there, we don't want to take away anything that might be needed for emergency funding either. Because sometimes there are genuine situations where you want to use the constrained funding available to deploy in an emergency situation.
So, we need to get the proportionality right and think this through, but we will look at it, we will bring forward further work on whether funding can be provided through dedicated streams, such as, by the way, the intermediate care fund. I think that many Members are becoming increasingly aware of the innovative use of this, including, by the way, of course, the Cardiff independent living centre. I'd recommend that Members go and see that—go and see what's happening there. That is funded through ICF. Now, we will look at this and see whether, with ICF and other such streams of funding, we can give more certainty, but we need some flexibility for emergency and other funding as well.
We were pleased to accept all of the recommendations here within the report. Let me say a little bit, then, more about those investments that have been made in programmes, the initiatives being taken forward that we can already do without waiting for 2019. So, across Wales, the public services boards have assessed the impact of loneliness and isolation as part of their wider analysis of well-being. This is what we voted for within this Assembly previously—before I was here—that this approach was the right approach. The plans that underpin these now are being consulted on, and I'm keen to see myself how public services boards will put the actions in place to maximise well-being at the very heart of our communities. All the different things we've been talking about—whether it is transport, whether it's access to toilets, whether it's community connectivity, whether it's libraries, this, that and the other—that's what this is about. We cannot directly fund from central Government every little initiative and every little group in every community. We can't do it. But what we can say is, 'Here's the framework that we expect to be delivered. Here are the outcomes that we want. Now, get on with it and find the way to do it', whether that's in rural mid Wales or whether that's in the deepest south Wales valley, and so on.
Now, public sector organisations are innovating to provide services tailored to meet individuals' needs. So, for example, the integrated care fund, a total of £60 million, supports joint working across housing, health and social care. It's designed to reduce hospital and residential care admissions and provide social care for people in ways that they want. Projects include new-build accommodation, equipment and adaptations that promote independence, that reduce isolation and that improve quality of life. And on the subject of housing, the Supporting—. I'm conscious—. I said I would never get to all of my points. I suspect that I'm in the last 30 seconds.

I think you are. You're in the last 10 seconds, actually, but go on.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I won't be able to do credit to everything. The Supporting People programme, designed to help people remain independent in their own homes, and, again, that aspect of tackling isolation—. I suspect it would be better, Deputy Presiding Officer, to refer people to the work that we're doing. Our response to the committee on the work of the committee has been done. We regard this with the seriousness that I have set out today, that we've set out in statements. We're committed to bringing forward that strategy in as rapid a timescale as we can. But we are not going to wait for that, I say to the Chair and committee members and everybody else who has contributed today. We need to get on with this and do it now. We know that it's not all to do with funding. It's to do with the way that we work on the ground and the way that we connect in our own communities. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Can I call on Dai Lloyd to reply to the debate?

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. In the few minutes remaining, may I thank the Minister for his positive response on the timescale of the strategy? I understand the reasoning behind the funding issues as well, and I congratulate him on being flexible on bringing those responses forward earlier, because isolation and loneliness—as we’ve heard from everyone, there is agreement across the Chamber about the detrimental effects.
Lynne Neagle spoke about suicide and isolation, and the excellent work being done by the Samaritans, and the importance of community groups. Lynne also referred to the potential detrimental effects of social media, in contrast to what Lee Waters said about the positive, powerful sideof developments in social media. We should be making more use of those developments. It does happen in places, as we heard from the Minister, and also from Julie Morgan. There is new technology that is being used to connect people, but at the end of the day, what gets rid of the idea of isolation and loneliness is talking to another living person.
I’ll never forget; a few years ago, I just greeted someone on the street in Swansea—I just said, 'hello' and she came to see me in the surgery the following week and that 'hello' was the only word a human being had said to her in that intervening week. In that week, she’d had nothing said to her from another person, and that’s always stayed with me. As we heard from Caroline Jones and others, people are so lonely that they go to see the nurse or the GP, as Jayne Bryant mentioned, and seeing that person, seeing those social services as well as the nurses, they see those people as a way of having a conversation—just someone to talk to. That shows the importance of communication with another living person.
Thanks to Angela Burns and Rhun for their contributions, and to Janet Finch-Saunders and Joyce Watson. It’s wonderful to have people who aren’t members of the committee making contributions as well—and there was a very powerful contribution from Dawn Bowden as well. So, congratulations to everyone who contributed, and I particularly congratulate the Minister. We’ve had a discussion of a very high standard this afternoon. I’m confident that we will see action in this area, having heard the positive response from the Minister. Thank you.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Mental Health

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We now move on to item 7, which is the Welsh Conservative debate on mental health,and I call onAngela Burns to move the motion.

Motion NDM6658Paul Davies
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Recognises the importance of good mental health.
2. Regrets that some people with mental health conditions face injustices and challenges when accessing services.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that Wales’s health and social care sectors are able to deliver effective, preventative mental health services.

Motion moved.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm delighted to move the motion tabled today by the Welsh Conservatives on the subject of mental health. This issue is one that will affect many of us during our lifetime, either directly or through close family and friends, and I'd like to start my contribution by saying thank you to those Members who have raised their personal experiences surrounding mental health in this Chamber on previous occasions. It's been open and courageous of you. By sharing those experiences, I believe it has helped others to understand that there is no shame in being unwell.
We have tabled this debate today because we want to draw attention to mental health. We want to draw attention to the fact that, if run in a more proactive and holistic manner, mental health services in Wales could be world leading. We want to send out the message to all those people currently living with mental health issues that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that people do understand.
Mental health is very much a catch-all term for a range of conditions. People suffering from mental health problems can have conditions ranging from mild anxiety, depression, eating disorders, through to bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. Whilst healthcare professionals are much more aware and adept at treating the more common mental health conditions, it is far harder to access or speak to experts quickly who deal with the more severe and complex conditions. This lack of adequate support for the more complex conditions can have dire consequences on a patient's health and may lead them to seeking other forms of support, by turning to drugs or alcohol.
Good mental health can have a positiveimpact, not only on the individual, but also on the whole community. It allows us to be more resilient and cope with what life has to throw at us. It is estimated that one in four of us—that's 25 per cent; that's a quarter of everybody in this Chamber—will suffer from a common mental disorder at some point in our lifetime. This is a concerning statistic, made all the more difficult by the fact that an unfounded stigma still surrounds mental illness, stopping many people, especially men, from facing their feelings or seeking advice because they can no longer cope.
According to Samaritans Wales, somewhere between 300 and 350 people die by suicide each year—almost one per day; 30 a month. About three quarters of these are men. A further 150,000 people have suicidal thoughts, according to the 2017 Welsh confederation report into mental health. This is around 5 per cent of the whole population, which is a truly sobering statistic. And it's not just the male/female split that's become apparent in recent years. Samaritans Wales also reports a growing difference between those living in poverty and those from more affluent areas. The charity's research found that, as deprivation increases, so does suicidal behaviour. Hospital admissions from self-harm are twice as high in deprived areas compared with the most affluent, while suicide risk increased with unemployment. Other research has estimated that the cost of poor mental health in the workplace amounts to £12 billion a year, nearly £860 for every employee in Wales. Cabinet Secretary, this begs the question as to what can be done to educate all of us on how we can spot the signs of poor mental health much earlier.

Angela Burns AC: There are many reasons for mental health conditions becoming evident. In some cases, adverse childhood experiences, known as ACEs, can lead to mental health problems later in life, and there are explicit links to drug dependency and thus early death. A single instance of an adverse childhood experience can be traumatic, but often we see adults who have had to deal with multiple cases in their formative years. What happens to us as we grow up matters, and it's not just the more traditional horrors that some children face. Today's kids have so many pressures on them in this modern world.
Speaking as a mother of two young girls, I can tell you we have constant battles about body image, the content of social media, what the print media says. The pressure on children, and especially girls, to conform to a certain look or style has only been made worse in recent years, and we all know how cruel children can be to one another. Childline reported that in 2015-16 they received over 1,500 contacts from girls, the youngest being eight, worried about their body image—at eight, really? Cabinet Secretary, this is something the Government must find a way of addressing as quickly as possible, because today's raunchy, celebrity-focused world damages those yet to develop the thick skin and emotional resilience to shrug the nonsense off. The result? Anxiety, depression, eating disorders—all patterns that can have a negative influence on a person's life going forward.
This leads me to the second point of our debate, where I would like to focus on aspects of mental health treatment that we believe are not working well. The first, you will not be surprised to hear, concerns the lack of consistency across Wales in providing good-quality child and adolescent mental health services. Despite their fragile and often far more vulnerable nature, a small percentage of clients who fall under the CAMHS umbrella are seen within the recommended four-week waiting time. Worryingly, only three out of seven Welsh health boards provide a 12-hours CAMHS crisis team, working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. The one in Powys only operates until 5 p.m. Monday to Friday, and not at all weekends. What does that say about where our importance is on mental health?
I, and I know many other Assembly Members—and I'd like to single out Lynne Neagle on this—remain concerned that the CAMHS services do not work effectively. Lynne has been an enormous champion on this area. The criteria that they follow are often too narrow. Clients are treated according to their mental health condition as opposed to being treated as an individual. Children threatening suicide are not provided with help because they haven't been diagnosed with a medicalised problem. Children suffering from the effects of abuse or neglect or with attachment issues are refused access, as a children and young people committee report into post-adoption support highlighted very, very clearly. So where do they go? I fear they go nowhere.
I would like to draw attention to the Mind Cymru study that surveyed 400 people in February 2016 who had either requested or accessed psychological therapies in the previous three years. This found that 57 per cent of people faced a wait of more than three months just to get an assessment with the service, and 21 per cent faced a wait of more than a year to be assessed. We've just had a debate on loneliness and isolation, and that's a depressive thing. I cannot imagine; there you are, you're in that awful state, you desperately need help, your mind is struggling, all sorts of thoughts are in your head, but you've got to wait 12 months to be seen. The 'Together for Mental Health' draft delivery plan for 2016-19 requires health boards to report on the 26-week referral-to-treatment target in specialist secondary mental health services for all patients, including those in inpatient services.
Now, in the Welsh Conservative 2017 manifesto, we said that people should have parity of access, regardless of whether they are in primary or secondary care—a policy that's backed by Mind Cymru—and I call on the Welsh Government to introduce a target for all peopleto be able to access psychological therapies within28 days. Cabinet Secretary, I ask if you would just look to see if you can make this possible. And in doing so, will you also review the way that training on mental health issues is structured, Cabinet Secretary? For example, GPs currently only undertake one trainingmodule, out of 21, dedicated to mental health. Numbers of trainee GPs undertaking a rotation in psychiatry is steadily falling and many GPs only see the most severe cases of mental health illness in primary care facilities during their training and therefore are less familiarand thereforefind it harder to identify more moderate cases of anxiety or depression that may benefit from early intervention when those people cross the door into their surgeries.
Another issue that I've raised again and again is the way in whichthe ring fence on mental health spending has been applied by health boards. Despite being protected by a ring fence since 2008, mental healthis an area of our healthservice that has been chronically underfunded. In 2015-16, just 5.1 per cent of NHS expenditure was spent on adult mental health, and just 0.7 per cent spent on children and adolescent mental health services. Although the ring fence highlights how important it is to protect spending on mental health, we know that it is not a true reflection of where mental health funding needs to be, becausealmost all of the healthboards say they spend far more than that on mental health. But, we also know that the mental healthring fence or the use of the ring fence is open to interpretation with many of the health boards playing thesystem and stating that the ring fence can be used to incorporate all costs in relation to a patient. We heard evidence in the healthand socialcare committee recently that, and I'm going to quote,
'For example, if a patient with a mental health primary diagnosis presents with a fractured hip the costs of treating the hip will be captured within the mental health ring-fence.'
Cabinet Secretary, wouldyou pledgeto review this ring fence on spending to ensure that the funding is being used to bring about much-needed developments in this service? Becauseif it's used on things like hips when you've identified it for mental health, then how can we transform how we deliver mentalhealth?
As I bring my remarks to a close, I would like to highlight a couple of examples where innovative projects are changing lives. In my own patch, Hywel Dda, in conjunction with Dyfed-Powys Police, are setting up three crisis cafes across the region with the intention of allowing people to drop in and chat to relevant support bodies over a coffee. This is a vast change to the current use of police as first respondersto so many people exhibitingsigns of poor mental health. It simply adds to the fear and that stigma and ultimately criminalisesthose with mental health issues—and I make it clear I do not hold the police forces to account for this; they are often the only ones available.
Another example of best practice comes from England where six NHS trusts have trained teams in an open dialogue approach. This approach means that people are seen within 24 hours of becomingunwell. Meetings with psychiatric teams are held at home or wherever the patients feel comfortable, and it also ensures that the 'nothing about you without you' mantra is adopted and allows the patient to have full access to their notes. It's an innovative idea well worth the Welsh NHS looking at. There are clear calls now in Wales, not just from the National Assembly but also from those working across our publicservices and the third sector and individuals, to radically reform the way mental health servicesare delivered. We need to fully recognise the individual social and economic benefits of preventing mental health from deteriorating. We need to give mental health the same parity of serviceprovision as physicalhealth, and we need to ensure that our secondary and crisis services are able to support people safely and effectively when they are needed.Ultimately, it's about people. We are flesh and blood, but we are also mind and soul. We can only be well when all of us is treatedas one.

Thank you. I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 1, tabled in his name.

Amendment 1.Rhun ap Iorwerth
Add as new point at end of motion:
Ensures that children who require treatment for mental health receive it promptly before their condition gets worse and that the Welsh Government publishes statistics on performance against this objective.

Amendment 1 moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the amendment tabled in my name, which endeavours to add to and strengthen the original motion. We can’t overemphasise the need to have effective mental health provision for young people, and we can’t overemphasise the need to deal with the health problems of young people at an early stage, because we do know that, in the most extreme cases, failure to deal with problems can be disastrous, and suicide is the secondmost common cause of death among people in their teenage years. The suicide rates here in Wales are higher than in England and in Scotland, and the recent figures demonstrate that many of the young people who have committed suicide were unknown to CAMHS, or only had a very brief interaction with those services, which suggests that the current provision is a long way short of what we need to meet demand.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We’ve recently heard a great deal of talk, and questions asked of the Government in this Chamber, about mental health care for young people. Waiting lists and waiting times are one important measure of the performance. To remind you, between 2013 and 2015 there was a huge increase in waiting times, particularly for those waiting over 16 weeks or four months. We were in a situation where almost half of those people waiting had to wait longer than four months. There was some improvement then, but by February 2017, the last month of data that we have available for comparison, the waiting times still hadn’t returned to the level of the summer of 2013, so the decline is very clear.
But the Government’s response time and time again, unfortunately, was to deny there was a problem. On many occasions, the First Minister claimed that the real problem was that there were too many people on the waiting list that didn’t need to be there. And in March of last year, what we saw was the statistics changing overnight. The number of people on the list recorded as being waiting for a CAMHS appointment went down 74 per cent, as non-CAMHS routes were withdrawn—that was over 1,700 children and young people. Our amendment today reflects the fact that we don’t know what happened to those children; the CAMHS data is the only performance data available.
Inevitably, a change in the way that waiting times were measured led the Government to tell us that the waiting times were improved because the data did demonstrate a great improvement: 86.7 per cent of cases were being seen within four weeks. A huge increase on the 35.2 per cent in the previous month. But, of course, what’s happened here is a change in the way things are recorded, and we can’t make real comparisons, and we don’t know what happened to that other 74 per cent of children that we used to record.
The First Minister wrote to Leanne Wood when we raised this issue in November, confirming that our figures were accurate: 74 per cent of the other cases were either children who would now be seen by specialist services for children with neurodevelopmental problems, which were developed in 2016-2017, or lesser cases that had been dealt with by primary care mental health services at a local level, which had been wrongly included in the previous CAMHS figures. But, of course, we don’t have data for the children who need those services.
We do accept that some children and young people had needed treatment for neurodevelopmental issues, rather than CAMHS. We also know that the threshold for CAMHS has been far too high. That was noted by the Children, Young People and Education Committee inquiry in 2014. The Wales Audit Office also noted that there was a problem of treatment for young people being stopped if an appointment was missed, and that was an issue that had an impact on the figures.
But I am a long way from being convinced that the only problem with CAMHS was there were too many children and young people there who didn’t need to be there. We know that it’s a capacity issue, an issue of a shortage of specialist services, and a failure to take the issue seriously enough. A lack of data is a problem that means that we can’t measure and assess and put pressure on the Government to take the steps that our young people need. We can’t accept the status quo of not knowing how the NHS is performing when it comes to looking after some of our most vulnerable people.

Paul Davies AC: I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this afternoon's debate.
Yesterday, I had the privilege of holding a joint briefing session on mental health services in rural areas with Simon Thomas. This event highlighted some of the serious issues regarding mental health provision in our rural communities. As Angela Burns said, one in four peoplesuffer from mental health issues at some point in their lives, and the agricultural industry has one of the highest rates of suicide. The farming industry can be a very arduous one to work in, and several factors that cause stress are out of farmers' hands,such as fluctuating prices in the market or the emotional effect of bovine TB. Many farmers work in isolated conditions and spend long hours on their own with very little contact with others. The nature of the work demands long hours of difficult physical labour.
Indeed, according to a report on supporting farmers' well-being by the Nuffield Farming Scholarships Trust,approximately 50 farmers in the UK die by suicide every year. In the United States, farmers, foresters and fishermen have the highest rates of suicide of any profession in the country. Despite these facts, mental health is not often discussed in the farming industry, and even though efforts are being made to address this issue, it is clear that more could be done.
However,awareness of mental health in rural areas is increasing and good work is being done across Wales.In my constituency,Emma Picton-Jones established the DPJ Foundation in July 2016 following the death of her husband Daniel, and we heard an excellent presentation from Emma in yesterday's briefing session. The foundation's aim is to support men in rural communities who face mental health issues by using Daniel's story to help challenge the stigma associated with mental health. Very recently, it launched Share the Load, an outreach counselling service that offers talking therapies and outreach advice services to those who need the support. The foundation's work is currently focused on Pembrokeshire, but there are examples of these kinds of activities in other parts of Wales, and it's vital that the Welsh Government promotes more locally based mental health support networks that are suited to the requirements of a particular locality. Perhaps in responding to this debate, the Cabinet Secretary might tell us how the Welsh Government is working with smaller community networks, especially in rural Wales, to get to grips with mental health issues in those communities.
Of course, raising awareness is one thing,but it is also important that services are available to people who face mental health issues, and there are concerns that there is no access to services in rural areas. The remote nature of many farming communities means thatthey are often geographically removed from core health services.For example, Hywel Ddalocal health board held a consultation on its plans to change the way it provides mental health services across west Wales by establishing a central specialist assessment unit at Glangwili hospital, with acentral treatment unit located at Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli.For rural communities located in Pembrokeshire, this once again means that patients will have to travel further afield for specialist treatment.Unfortunately, the health board's proposals will naturally add to journey times, and there is no doubt that people who depend on public transport will face additional difficulties because transport infrastructure in Pembrokeshire is restricted.So, it is, therefore, vital that the Welsh Government acknowledges that there is no one-size-fits-all solution and that health boards must understand this when they plan their services.
We could also learn lessons from across the globe with regard to how other nations tackle mental health in rural communities.The Nuffield FarmingScholarships Trust reportmakes it clear that Australia and New Zealand are leading the way in their response to mental health issues among farmers, and perhaps we could benefit from some of their ideas. For example, New Zealand has a system of health pit stops where farmers have an opportunity to have a general physical and mental health check.These pit stops are held at major industry events, such as agricultural fairs. This trailer has also developed institutionssuch as the Centre for Rural and Remote Mental Health and the National Centre for Farmer Health, which focus on developing intervention strategies for mental health and well-being in rural communities. So, there is scope for Wales to look at these initiatives to see how wecan learn from some of the successes,and I hope that the Welsh Government will ensure that our health boards learn from successful schemes worldwide.
In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer,may I once again reiterate the importance of investing in mental health support networks for rural communities?Farmers are some of the most important workers in Wales, but they are also sometimes some of our most vulnerable citizens.And so, as part of any strategy or policy that the Government develops on mental health, I would like to see a deeper understanding of and greater attention paid to our rural communities and those who work in them. I therefore urge Members to support this motion. Thank you very much.

Lynne Neagle AC: I'm speaking this afternoon in my capacity as Chair of the Assembly's Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've recently undertaken a comprehensive inquiry into the emotional and mental health of children and young people in Wales. Tomorrow, we will hold our final oral evidence session, hearing from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services and the Cabinet Secretary for Education. We are aiming to report before Easter this year, so I will avoid pre-empting our conclusions and recommendations in my contribution today.
However, I wanted to draw Members'attention to the valuable evidence we have taken on this subject in recent months, and the particular emphasis that has been placed on the importance of effective preventative work by expert stakeholders, front-line staff and children and young people themselves. We began our inquiry last summer.
The first thing we did was to visit settings that are providing support to children and young people at opposite ends of the spectrum of need. While some of us visited Wales's two in-patientunits, which provide support for those suffering the most acute mental ill health and requiring the most specialist of support, others visited Ysgol Pen y Brynin Colwyn Bay, a primary school that has embedded mindfulness across its primary and junior school teaching. While visiting Ysgol Pen y Bryn,Members saw first-hand what can be achieved in terms of children's resilience if a whole-school approach is adopted that promotes well-being and good mental health for all pupils from an early age. Children as young as six told us that mindfulness helped them when they were worried, nervous or anxious. In contrast, the young people with whom we spoke in Tŷ Llidiard, the unit for children and young people in south Wales who require in-patient care, told us that more needed to be done to raise awareness about mental health and to empower young people to talk about their concerns. They told us that they'd been suffering with mental health problems for a long time before they had access to any form of support, specialist or otherwise.
During the course of our evidence gathering, it has become clear that school settings are key to promoting emotional well-being and good mental health. There is a strong consensus that by addressing issues as early as possible, before matters become serious enough to merit specialist intervention, significant deterioration in mental well-being can be avoided. We heard that if support is to be truly preventative in nature, we need to make sure that children and young people can speak openly about their emotional well-being and know where to turn if they have concerns about themselves or others. The opportunities afforded by the reform of the curriculum in Wales have been raised by almost every witness.
Nevertheless, it is also clear that a step change is needed to realise this ambition. The evidence we've heard demonstrates that, despite an overarching desire to see education, health and social care working more closely to align their support, in practice, this has yet to be implemented to the degree necessary. Despite the efforts of organisations such as the Samaritans to roll out support such as the DEAL project—Developing Emotional Awareness and Listening—too many children find themselves without the tools they need to enable them to respond with resilience to the pressures that life throws at them from an increasingly early age. As Dr Liz Gregory, a consultant clinical psychologist, told us,too often when we have concerns about the mental health of our children, we turn to an adult model of care. This fails to recognise the inherent vulnerability and lack of control children have over their own lives at such a relatively early stage in their life journey.
In closing, I want to note that, as a committee, we have shone a light on this topic over the last six months, with the aim of reforming a system that has, for too long, relied on children and young people reaching a point where treatment and medical intervention is needed before support is provided. When we report later this term, we will focus on the steps we need to take to reverse this, to encourage good mental health and well-being so that our children and young people are enabled to discuss their emotions without fear of stigma and to ensure they have the tools they need to face pressures and challenges with resilience and confidence. Thank you.

Darren Millar AC: I'm very pleased to take part in this debate and I welcome the contribution that's just been made about the work of the CYPE committee.

Darren Millar AC: I want to focus, if I may, my comments on the plight of veterans' mental health services. It's an issue that is frequently raised in the cross-party group on the armed forces and cadets, and it's something that we actually visited earlier this week as well in our cross-party group meeting, at which Angela Burns was present. We all know that veterans don't just face stresses on their mental health from actually being in conflict and war zones, but they can actually face pressures during the transition back into civilian life post their service. So, it's really very essential that we have a health and social care system that meets their particular needs, because of course we know that if we don't meet their needs, then there could be a cycle of decline, which is significant and which actually costs the taxpayer much more money to resolve than had these issues been nipped in the bud in the first place: family breakdown, criminal justice system episodes, and—unfortunately, as is the case with the farming community, as we've also heard—people deciding to end their own lives.
Now, the Welsh Government, I have to say, has to be commended for the establishment of Veterans'NHS Wales. It's something that we on these benches have continuously supported and championed over the years. We know that almost 3,000 veterans have used the service since it was established in 2010, and that the numbers of individuals accessing the service have increased year on year since it was started. Just last week, I visited the Cardiff and Vale hub of the service to meet with Dr Neil Kitchener, who of course supervises the service across Wales, and I saw, there, the tremendous work that's been going on with their 3MDR research, which is an immersive technology that gets veterans to confront the trauma that they have experienced in the past, in the hope that it will help to resolve that trauma and get them throughit, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary has also been to visit—tremendous research, cutting-edge research, which is taking place here in Wales, and I want to trumpet that fact, because it's something we can all be very proud of.
However, there are pressures within the Veterans' NHS Wales service that need tobe addressed. One of the big problems that they've had in recent years is capacity, and the Cabinet Secretary is aware that there are variable waiting times across Wales for access to the service. In some places, the wait can be as short as eight weeks, which is obviously very, very good. In other places, it can be as long as 38 weeks, which is clearly unacceptable, at the moment. And, of course, those pressures have been relieved, to a certain extent, with an additional investment of £100,000, which recently came through from the Welsh Government, but I'm afraid it's insufficient still to meet the scale of the demand that's out there. So, the service itself reckons that it needs an additional £250,000 to provide peer mentoring support, which can be embedded as part of the service, which was traditionally there as a result of the Change Step service, which was a Wales-wide service, which was being run by CAIS, which is a charity that operates from my own constituency. And the peer mentoring support services at the moment are actually funded partly by Help for Heroes and partly, to their credit, by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board, which complements the Veterans' NHS Wales therapist service, which is available.
So, for just £0.25 million per year, which is small beer in terms of the overall Wales-wide NHS budget, we can make a real difference to these veterans, and I do believe, Cabinet Secretary, that it's your will that we have the best service that we can possibly have for those veterans here in Wales, so I would sincerely ask that you review the funding arrangements for Veterans' NHS Wales to see whether you might be able to consider this £250,000, in addition to the resources that you've already pledged, so that that service can be a gold-standard service in a way that no other part of the UK actually has.
I just want to close with a plug for Veterans Shed services as well. The very first veterans' shed—. People will be familiar with Men's Sheds services, but the very first veterans' shed was actually established in my own constituency in Llanddulas, and I'm very proud of that fact. They also are doing, at a very much lower level, but they're building resilience in the veteran community when they are facing challenges after returning to civilian life. So, I want to plug them and MartinMargerison, the gentleman who started that in my own constituency. I feel that we need more of those veterans' sheds across Wales, and I want to commendthe Government for the work it's doing on NHS veterans, but I do think that we need to more.

Caroline Jones AC: I would like to thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this debate today and Angela for opening the debate and for her eloquent contribution.
Unfortunately, mental health still does not get the attention it deserves within our NHS.I welcome the additional £20 million for the mental health ring-fenced budget, which raises the total to £649 million. However, this is still simply not enough.
Having worked with people who have varying degrees of mental health issues, it is harrowing to say the least, and meeting their families—it was very disturbing. Having also worked closely with the Samaritans, I feel humbled by the work they do and the around-the-clock service they provide and also the lives that they save. I accept that the ring-fenced budget is the minimum spend and that the actual spend can be much higher than that, but it’s usually not much higher.The actual spend for the last year for which we have figures, 2015-16: Wales spent £683 million.When you consider that the health budget stands at around £7.5 billion and that mental health issues affect more than a quarter of our population, why are we spending around 10 or 11 per cent on mental health services?
PricewaterhouseCoopers, in their review of the financial ring-fencing arrangements for mental health services in Wales, state that the ring fence allocation is not based on a robust assessment of healthcare needs. The Welsh Government needs to change the ring-fencing arrangements as a matter of urgency.
I won't repeat the veterans' cause because Darren has already said it, but my sentiment is there also.
Waiting times for mental health services are still far too long, particularly for child and adolescent mental health services. Despite a 28-day target, more than half the children referred to CAMHS wait more than four weeks, and some children and young people are waiting more than half a year.One constituent of mine called me as she'd been waiting seven months for an assessment, and upon speaking to a member of the CAMHSteam,I was told that the backlog—this was six months ago—was vast and that some people had been waiting almost a year.So, the picture for adult mental health services isn’t much better.Twelve and a half per cent of patients wait up to 56 days and more than 9 per cent of patients wait much longer than that.
We don’t leave injured patients in pain, so why do we tolerate leaving those suffering from mental ill health in mental anguish for months on end?Not only do we have insufficient funding for mental health services, we also have a huge shortage of clinical staff.We have just six consultant psychiatrists per 100,000 patients. There are 10 per 100,000 in Scotland and eight in England.We have huge shortages in general psychiatry, geriatric psychiatry and clinical psychology.No wonder waiting times are so high.
Forcognitive behavioural therapy and other talking therapies most patients wait between three to four months to a year, and 15 per cent of patients wait much longer than a year.As a result, there has been an overreliance on prescription medication. According to the latest Gofal snapshot, 80 per cent of patients are offered psychiatric medication, up from around 60 per cent in 2012. Psychiatric medication, while beneficial to many, should not be seen as a cure-all.There can be horrendous side effects from antidepressants and antipsychotics, ranging from decreased alertness to suicidal feelings.
Unfortunately, a combination of overworked GPs and long waiting lists for psychological therapies is leaving people with no alternative but to take drugs that could leave them feeling much worse.This is not what was envisaged by the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 and is possibly contributing to our suicide rates, which result in three times as many deaths as road traffic accidents.We are letting down our constituents, of whom one in four suffer from mental health issues.
I urge all Members to support the motion, together with the Plaid Cymru amendment, and urge the Welsh Government to take urgent action to improve mental health provision for all in Wales.

David Melding AC: It's a pleasure to take part in this debate. It's one of a series we've had this afternoon when there is cross-party support for better services in a particular area.
Last week, I sponsored for the Time to Change Wales campaign an event here in the Senedd. As you will know, the goal of that campaign is to end mental health stigma and discrimination in Wales. Only a week before—I'm sure many other colleagues did the same as I did—I took part in the Time to Talk Day, a day that promotes the message that any day, any minute, any time is a good time to talk about mental health. I actually tweeted, with the aid, I must say, of my very able researcher, but anyway, I won't—[Laughter.] You know, you can't transform someone completely, can you? Not over night, anyway. But anyway, half way down Lloyd George Avenue, by the public art there of two faces talking, or kissing maybe—I don't know; it depends on your interpretation—I stood in front, and I talked about my own experiences and how important it is just to speak about mental health and well-being and recovery.
I do think that we could have even more world-class mental health services than we have at the moment, and we do have some. Let's acknowledge that. There is some great best practice in Wales. But I think, with a suite of really far-seeing legislation, such as theWell-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, theSocial Services and Well-being(Wales)Act 2014, thePublic Health(Wales)Act 2017 and, mostrecently, theparliamentary review, all highlighting a level of consensus across the Assembly, that we need more anticipation, more person-centred approaches, more inter-generational planning for what we should be delivering, and really ending barriers between physical and mental health in terms of what we're trying to achieve.
So, we need to build, I think, on the better practice when it emerges. I learned recently of Mind Cymru and their work with GPs and local health boards to roll out early prevention services. Now, this does seem to me to be key, and they have active monitoring. I'm glad to see that the scheme of active monitoring has been supported by Welsh Government funding. So far, active monitoring has exceeded all initial expectations, with 38 GP surgeries across Wales offering patients services under active monitoring, and some 433 patients at the moment having help. Of those patients, 71 of people experiencing clinical levels of anxiety and panic attacks fully recovered, with 54 per cent of people experiencing clinical levels of depression fully recovering.
Can I say, I suspect I'm not the only Assembly Member, but I'm certainly one, who has had a number of episodes of panic attack? It is horribly debilitating. It has a huge effect on your confidence and what you think you're going to be able to do. When you get through that, and when you've had the treatment, the support, whatever it is, the fulfilment you feel, the well-being you feel, and the stability you feel is something beyond measure. I think any services that get people to that better condition are to be hugely valued. They're not often very intensive. We're not talking about people in serious illness. Let's remember that. Anxiety and depression and panic attacks: they may accompany more serious illness, but people who are not seriously ill in terms of their mental health can still be prone to these things. So, mild to moderate ill health can be very, very debilitating, and has huge effects on the economy as well, and family life and all sortsof things.

Dai Lloyd AC: David, will you take an intervention on that point?

David Melding AC: Yes.

Dai Lloyd AC: I think it's only fair to commend, at this stage, your erstwhile colleague Jonathan Morgan, when he was Assembly Member here, who pushed through the Mental Health (Wales) Measure in 2010,which is all about prevention being better than cure, early treatment, early talking therapies, and we still await the full fulfilment of that mental health Measure.

David Melding AC: Thank you for that. I'm delighted to refer to my friend and colleague Jonathan Morgan,who I greatly miss here, if I might be indulgent. But I think, absolutely, and that was a shift in our practice and aspirations in Wales. Can I just finally, in conclusion, say that I do welcome the Plaid Cymru amendment? I think it does add to the motion, and just to say, in terms of some recent meta-analysisof school-based programmes for mental health and well-being, the efficacy is shown to be quite remarkable. And this meta-analysisfound that there was a significant increase in educational performance, with 11 per cent improvement in academic achievement. Now, that's what happens when you support people when they need support and prevent things from getting worse. I could say a lot more, but I fear I'm out of time. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

No, thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm happy to start this debate by confirming that the Government will support the motion. And I also want to set out that I won't be able to respond to all of the detailed points that Members have made in the debate, but I have taken the time to listen to each of the contributions and the points that have been made. Of course, I will have the opportunity, as the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee has set out, to answer some detailed questions at the end of the evidence for the inquiry that is taking place. I suspect that, giventhat there are only two hours to speak to myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Education, there may yet be some questions for us to answer in correspondence afterwards, and I'm recognising one of my faults as a person in doing so.
I want to reaffirm this Government's recognition of the impact of mental health issues on a wide variety of areas and on our ability to function as people, as individuals and with others, but also to restate our commitment to, and investment in, improving mental health acrossWales. And, of course, the Government restated our commitment and recognitionof the key importance of mental health by positioning it as one of the five priority areas in our national strategy 'Prosperity for All'. And, importantly, this isn't just a health challenge. All of the Welsh Government and our partners outside Government need to consider the impact of mentalhealth across all that we do, because this is a complex issue and one that cannot be tackled by the NHS alone. So, this isn't just a public service issue. It's an issue that cuts across the public and the private sector, voluntary and statutory, an issue for each and every community in Wales. For instance, parenting, education, employment and housing are all protective factors for mental health, and if any one of those fails, it often has a consequence in mental health outcomes. People had more to say about adverse childhood experiences, and I was pleased to hear Angela Burns mention that in her opening remarks.
The Government's cross-cutting approach is underpinned by a range of policies, programmes and legislation that we have introduced to improve mental health and well-being in Wales. The Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 is a unique piece of cross-party legislation, designed to improve access to, and deliveryof, services. And the Measure has helped to drive improvement in mental healthservice deliverysince its implementation in 2012. That Measure is at the heart of our 10-year mental health strategy, 'Together for Mental Health', which we published in 2012. It takes a population approach to improve the mental well-being of peoplein Wales, and to support people with a mental illness. It sets out clearly our actions and those of partner organisations to make the strategy a reality, and this approach is supported by significant investment.
We continue to spend more on mental health services than any other part of NHS Wales. And, as was acknowledged, there is a ring-fence around mental health spending, and I'll take on board some of the comments made by Angela Burns on that. We've increased funding, not just previously, as we're going to be seeing an increase in funding in the mental health ring-fence by a further £20 million to nearly £650 million in the next financial year. And on top of those general increases, £22 million of funding has been targeted to improve access to a number of specific service improvement areas for people of all ages in the previoustwo years. In this, I really do think that the Government in Wales has a good record of not just talking aboutmental health, because when we say that increases are going to be found for mental health services, they are spent in those areas.
I would say that when we look at the picture across the border in England, I think it's been a really positive thing to have the last two Prime Ministers talk so openly about mentalhealth. The challenge there is is that lots of the money thathas been outlined for mental health has actuallygone into the bottom line for services.So, actually, in England, they have a challenge about catching up with some of the progress we have made in this area. We have the alternative challenge of continuing to improve in this area to make sure that the money that we spend delivers real value in each and every one of our communities. But, the value and the commitment to mental health that I believewe have consistently demonstrated through the Measure, 'Together for Mental Health' and our targetedinvestment provides a strong foundationfor us to engage with the transformationalvision demanded of us in the parliamentary review.
In terms of access to mental health services—people rightly regularly discuss and talk about it in correspondence, in person, in corridors, in the Chamber, and of course in committees too—our aim still remains, and it must be, to ensure that everyone in Wales has access to the right care when they need it, irrespective of other factors such asrace, sexuality or language. This is about genuinelyproviding the right service. So, we're working with both the NHS and with third sector partners to try and deliver equal access for all. For example, this morning, I published our new dementia plan and all of the actions in that dementia plan are underpinned by the principle of equitable access.
But, we do recognise, as AngelaBurns mentioned, the very real challenge of stigma around mental health. It's one of the most significant issues that prevents people from talkingabout their problems and seeking help at as early an opportunity as possible. The challenge there is, again, how people are prepared to listen, to demonstrate more kindness to the people around them, and at the same time to encourage people to get over that stigma and actually say, 'I need help', and to understand where to find it.

Angela Burns AC: Will you take an intervention? Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for taking an intervention. I absolutelyrecognise the approach you're taking in responding to this, but I would like to ask you for your view on the provision of crisis care centres, becausepeople are not nine-to-five robots and people do have mental health issues out of hours and at weekends. You'vejust talked about access to services and you've just talked about equalityand equity for all, yet we know in some health boards there simply isn't that support for people when they need it.

Vaughan Gething AC: Actually, as I'll be setting out tomorrow, we're reviewingsome of the challenges in mental health service provision, whether it's through CAMHS or local primary mental health services. I'd expect that review to take on board the issues that you've mentioned.
But, of course, the challenge about stigma is why we continue to support the Time to Change Wales campaign. I'm delighted David Melding mentionedit, and again I recognisehis own bravery for sharing his own experience, both of going through mental health challengesand being able to come out the other side and say, 'I recognise I'm in a better place now as a result.' There's somethingthere about encouraging more people to do the same, to open up about their own challenges, to change the nature of both public debate but also the private debate that we have as ordinary citizens too.
We do recognise the importance of prevention. That's why it's a key theme, together with early intervention, in 'Together for Mental Health', and that includes a focus on non-clinical support. So, we're keen to maximise opportunities to support people with a wider range of non-clinical community services that offer real health and well-being benefits. Plans for our well-being bond, which will include a focus on mental health, are being finalised and I'll look forward to being able to provide more informationto Members on this shortly. We're also committedto a mental health social prescribingpilot and we're on track to have that pilot in place from April this year.
As was recognisedearlier by a range of people, includingAngela Burns, the roots of healthand well-being lie in our childhood. The experiences that we have whilst growing up, the support, the connections, the resources available to us or not, are instrumental in determining our life outcomes and our resiliencein dealing withthe challenges that life will present us.That's why the Government, togetherwith Public HealthWales, has funded the ACE support hub—adverse childhood experiences. That centre of expertise is to increase understandingof ACEs, to increase resilience, to support and inspire individuals, communitiesand organisations to learn about ACEs, and to become more aware and to change thinkingand behaviour.
We continue to invest in our ambitious programme to improve access to specialist CAMHS services in response to significantincreases in recent years. Members will know we've invested significantlyin this. Members will also know we've set a new waiting time standard and the challenge now is that I expect to see a furtherand sustained improvement in performance from March onwards. We'll continue to publish a range of performance data in relation to that access, available by month and individual health board. I look forward to working with people within and outside this Assembly Chamber to continue to improve mental health in every community acrossWales.

Thank you. I call on Nick Ramsay to reply to the debate.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank everyone who's contributedto today's thought-provoking debate? You were all great. You all raised many issues of importance. Can I also say, first, in response to the Cabinet Secretary's comments, that I'm pleased that you are going to be supporting today's motion? It has been tabled in a constructive way and one in which we really hope to move the debate on. I hope, in looking at how you can address some of these issues, you look at some global examples as well, because I think there's a lot of good practice out there.
I can't mention everyone's comments today, but I will touch on a few of the speakers. First of all, in opening, Angela Burns spoke of the importance of removing the stigma surrounding mental health. That's such an important point, and you were right to say that AMs here who have spoken about their experience have been key to getting rid of that stigma and moving this debate on in the past, and that deserves to be commended. You also spoke about the suicide statistics, which I think I will take away from this debate as being shocking. That is somethingthat, when this system fails, when things go wrong, that is what you're looking at at the end of this—you're looking at the loss of life and that needs to be dealt with in the way that you spoke of.
That's where Paul Davies came in, because I attended the DPJ Foundation event that Paul hosted yesterday, I think it was—time flies by. It was fascinating listening to the experiences that people have gone through—they themselves have gone through the issues and their families have gone through the issues of dealing with suicide. You did a great job yesterday, Paul. Keep up the good work, and DPJ Foundation need to keep up the good work as well, because it's really important.
Lynne Neagle, you identified the need for a step change in addressing these issues and you spoke about curriculum change bringing health and social services together. In fact, you made a point that was later made by the Cabinet Secretary that this is a cross-cutting issue; it touches on all aspects of life and all aspects that Government deals with. So, it's not a question of putting this in one silo and dealing with it there, we do need a truly joined-up approach. Darren Millar spoke of the need to support veterans who are suffering from mental health issues.
David Melding, you mentioned Jonathan Morgan, as did Dai Lloyd, and yes, he did a lot to move this issue on. Thinking back, I think he was the first person to bring a Measure—the mental health Measure—to this Chamber, which was later adopted by the Welsh Government. He's not in the Chamber today—well, not in body, anyway—but in spirit, he has been invoked, so I hope he's watching this debateand will appreciate that we appreciate what he did.
Can I say in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I'd like to reiterate Angela's key call, actually, in her contribution, when she said that we call on the Welsh Government to introduce a target for all people to be able to access psychological therapies within 28 days? That's a really important call. Hopefully, if we can't achieve other things, we can achieve that, Cabinet Secretary, and we can ensure that those therapies, that treatment is there when people need it.
Very finally, the Time to Change Wales campaign has been mentioned by a number of Assembly Members. Bev Jones who helps run that campaign and set it up lives near me, in my village, so I know Bev very well, and I know just how dedicated she is to the cause of mental health and how pleased she is that we're having this debate today.
The statistics say it all. Most of us, all of us, will either have a mental health issue during our lives or we will be affected by it in some way through our friends and families. So, I'm glad you're supporting this debate. I urge everyone to vote for this motion today, and let's get on with the job of changing Wales, because that time has come.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion, does any Member object? No? Therefore, the motion—[Interruption.] Just in time. You have got to be quicker than that. I would've expected you to have been on the ball, as a rugby player, but there we go. All right.We move to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. Does anybody want the bell to be rung? No.

8. Voting Time

Therefore, we move to voting time. We vote on the Welsh Conservative debate on mental health. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 41, no abstentions, six against, therefore, the motion is agreed.

NDM6658 - Welsh Conservatives debate on the motion without amendment: For: 41, Against: 6, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

We now move to the short debate.

9. Short Debate: Getting smart with fuel poverty

If you're going, can you leave the Chamber, please? This is not an excuse to have a chat on the way out. Right. We are going to move to the short debate, and I call on Mark Isherwood to speak on the topic he has chosen. Mark.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Can I start by saying I've given a minute to David Melding, who will be speaking after I conclude, with your indulgence?
A household in Wales is in fuel poverty if they spend 10 per cent or more of their income on energy costs. As chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency now, I also recall the hard work of the cross-party group on fuel poverty in the third Assembly, which I also chaired, to establish the fuel poverty coalition and the fuel poverty charter, and to secure agreement from the Welsh Government to revise its fuel poverty strategy then. In 2010, the Welsh Government set out its strategy to eradicate fuel poverty in Wales in all households by 2018. I apologise to the sector, who've put so much work into giving me information for this speech, that so few Assembly Members are showing them the respect of staying to give attention to their very deep-rooted and justified concerns.
Less than 10 months away from the target date to eradicate fuel poverty in Wales, the most recent statistics show that almost 300,000 households in Wales—23 per cent of the total—are living in fuel poverty, unable to afford to adequately heat their home, or in crippling debt with their energy supplier. It is clear, therefore, that this Welsh Government strategy hasn't met its objectives.
The objectives of the 2010 fuel poverty strategy are of course still relevant. It's still vital that we reduce the impact of fuel poverty on households and work to eradicate fuel poverty. It's still vital that we create green jobs and business opportunities, and it's still vital that we reduce energy inefficiency in the domestic sector. However, many of the mechanisms and measures contained within the 2010 fuel poverty strategy are out of date or no longer applicable. Although the Nest and Arbed schemes are helping, these alone are not sufficient to tackle the problem. The Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs's announcement of £104 million investment over the next four years in increasing the energy efficiencyof up to 25,000 low-income households in Wales is welcome. However, this will not eradicate fuel poverty by 2018. This equates to an average of 6,250 homes each year, and, if the schemes were to continue to assist similar numbers each year, it would take 48 years to eradicate fuel poverty in Wales.
Britain's smart meter roll-out is the biggest upgrade to our energy infrastructure in a generation. Every household across Great Britain is eligible for a smart meter from their energy supplier at no additional cost. The energy system upgrade will digitise the retail energy market, bring an end to estimated bills and provide information on energy costs in pounds and pence. Smart meters give near real-time information on energy consumption, accurate energy bills and the information to work out whether people are on the best tariff or should switch to a different tariff or supplier. Once the national infrastructure is complete, smart meters will be fully interoperable between suppliers, which will mean quicker and easier switching. However, the roll-out will also require universal mobile connectivity, something the Welsh Government clearly has an important role to play in the delivery of.
Smart meters should make pre-pay as easy as pay-as-you-go on a mobile. Consumers will have the ability to switch easily between payment options, with no need to change their existing smart meter. Consumers will conveniently see how much credit they've left on their in-home display, top-up will become more flexible, and people will pay the same rates as everyone else, because smart meters remove the need for pre-pay to be more expensive than other tariffs.However, energy suppliers have highlighted the need for the retail energy price cap to be constructed in a way that allows them to carry on implementing the smart meter roll-out.

Mark Isherwood AC: The annual cost to the Welsh NHS for treating people who are made ill byliving in a cold, damp home is approximately £67 million annually.Evidence by National Energy Action shows that a cold home can worsen arthritic conditions and rheumatic conditions, and increase propensity for falls.GP consultations for respiratory tract infections can increase by up to 19 per cent for every 1 degree drop in temperature below 5 degrees centigrade.And it's not only physical health problems that stem from cold homes. Individuals living in homes with bedroom temperatures of 15 degrees centigrade are 50 per cent more likely tosuffer from mental health problems—in the context of the previous debate—than those living with temperatures of 21 degrees centigrade.With current demand on the Welsh NHS higher than ever before, more needs to be done to tackle cold homes. Eradicating fuel poverty will not only lead to a healthier population, and therefore reduce demand on NHS Wales, but will also contribute to the decarbonisation targets set by the Welsh Government.
We know that the energy used in homes accounts for more than a quarter of energy use in Wales. More energy is used in housingthan either road transport or industry and, therefore, housing represents a major opportunity to cut energy use and emissions. A revised strategy with ambitious objectives is now vital. Better insulation, smarter lighting and appliances, and smarter heating systems could reduce the emissions of a household by 0.6 tonnes of carbon dioxide per year,and will save the householder an average of £184 each year. Improving the housing stock will therefore both cut emissions and help tackle fuel poverty. NEA Cymru have called for new targets to improve homes to a minimum energy efficiency standard of energy performance certificate 'C', which I raised with the Cabinet Secretary last month.
Calor Gas have stated that they also fully support increasing the energy efficiency of homes and providing people with information to help them do this. However, they called for smarter design of EPCs as the principal energy efficiency rating measure on energy performance certificates, which is prominently placed on the first page and based on running costs rather than units of energy. They therefore state that this is an unreliable measure of energy efficiency, particularly in off-gas grid areas. They advocate instead the use of an energy-based rating system, adopting the approach used in many other European countries that have also had to comply with the energy performance of buildings directive. Calor highlight the need for a programme targeted at rural areas, which traditionally have higher levels of fuel poverty, with rural households more likely to be off the gas grid and living in less energy-efficient properties, for example, with solid walls and/or floors, or using non-traditional heating systems. However, the Welsh Government’s 2016 consultation on the future of its energy efficiency scheme Nest largely ignored the needs of rural communities, with little commitment to allow rural dwellings in smaller off-gas communities to benefit. Calor highlight the need to look at rural housing separately to urban, to encourage continued innovation and low-carbon fuels and technologies,and to ensure that current building regulations are properly enforced.
I've had the pleasure, amongst others, of visiting the Natural Building Centre inLlanrwst, Conwy,which offers comprehensive expertise regarding old buildings and ecological building products, including the appropriate insulation for non-traditional rural dwellings. We need to be thinking outside the box and looking at these innovative alternativesolutions if we're going to reach out to these hidden needs and areas where fuel poverty is still far, far too high.
The 'Fuel Poverty Strategy 2010'states that:
'It is only by pulling together, social,environmental and economic objectives that we can improve the well-being of householders and communities in Wales.'
What is needed now is a revised fuel poverty strategy, with ambitious targets and investment in order to eradicate fuel poverty in Wales as a social justice issue once and for all. Yes, this is about energy efficiency, but it's also about tackling together social isolation, the impact on mental illness,financial illiteracy and debt, and much more. It's also about saving money for the public purse. As the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru states, the Welsh Government must
'Save lives by implementing the NICE guidelines on tackling excess winter deaths'.
As the Bevan and Joseph Rowntreefoundations told the Assembly's Communities, Equality and Local GovernmentCommittee threeyears ago,
'fuel poverty should have a higher profile in the Welsh Government's tackling poverty action plan, because it is a fundamental human need to have a warm home.'
And, as Age Cymru have said,
'many of the mechanisms and measures contained within the...2010 Fuel Poverty Strategyare out of date or no longer applicable',
adding that
'the time is right for the Welsh Government to refresh its Fuel Poverty Strategy, with a clear programme and time scales, credible evidence base and ambitious new fuel poverty target rooted in delivery rather than being a hostage to energy price movements'.
We must put early intervention and prevention into practice, giving real meaning to person-centred and citizen-directed approaches. Independent advice services for people in fuel poverty must be supported, rescuing those in immediate crisis whose needs are not met by current provision, and I say that wisely because I have close relatives providing that advice and dealing every day with people in crisis who should have received help earlier.
Contributions by energy companies offering advice and support for people struggling with their energy bills must be embraced. The UK Government is considering measures to prevent millions of people getting into financial difficulty through unfair energy bills. The new proposals from them will help vulnerable people benefit from cheaper energy by allowing energy suppliers to automatically move vulnerable people onto a special safeguard tariff set by Ofgem that will protect them from unfair price rises, launching a consultation only yesterday to seek the views on changing the law to allow information to be shared under controlled conditions between public authorities and energy suppliers. This would identify customers receiving specific state benefits that indicate that they might be at risk of fuel poverty and see them moved automatically to Ofgem’s safeguard tariff cap.
The Welsh Government is urged toimplement the following recommendations: to designate domestic energy efficiency as a key national infrastructure priority that lies at the heart of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales's investment priorities, to develop a new long-term strategy for addressing fuel poverty as a matter of urgency and a matter of social justice, to set a new fuel poverty target to improve homes to a minimum energy efficiency standard, backed up with the data we need to drive an ambitious new strategy, and to ensure that public services boards for every local authority area in Wales outline how they intend to address cold homes and fuel poverty in their local well-being plans and integrate this into the work of the regional partnership boards. It’s time to get smart with fuel poverty. Diolch yn fawr.

David Melding AC: I'm very grateful to Mark Isherwood for giving me a minute. I just want to focus on the potential we have to drive even more change through social housing. There's already good, indeed best, practice, emerging in this sector, because they can build at scale. So, we can be looking at homes that potentially generate more energy than they consume. That ends fuel poverty in those homes. It's astonishing. That achievement is now on our doorstep, if I can use an appropriate term. We need to develop a market for these standards in terms of social homes and building off site and modular building. These things are often very viable in terms of using the latest materials for maximum fuel efficiency. So, we're already seeing some good progress in terms of what the social housing sector can do for us. I want to see more of that so that we drive change and then it spreads out in terms of the general housing market, but also in terms of what housing associations can do for retrofitting and then developing and helping develop amore extensive market there, because what Mark has said is right—we're not going to achieve our target to eliminate fuel poverty, so I think we need to look to set a new one and to eliminate it as soon as possible, but drive forward with the necessary expenditures in our programme, because it will bring immense benefit to so many people, because living in a cold home is really bad for you.

Thank you. Can I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs to reply to the debate? Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this very important debate where he raised some very important points. It gives me an opportunity to describe what we're doing as a Government and it also reminds us of the need to maintain action to tackle fuel poverty. Living in a cold home can have a significant impact on health, educational attainment and overall social and economic well-being. The Welsh Government has been absolutely clear in our commitment to do everything we can to tackle fuel poverty.
Wales has some of the oldest and least thermally efficient building stock in Europe, so it takes more energy to keephomes warm, driving up energy consumers' costs. Improving the energy efficiency of our housing stock is, therefore, key to reducing demand, reducing energy bills and tackling fuel poverty. This debate is focusedupon the subject of getting smarter with fuel poverty, and there are many ways we can demonstrate a smarter approach. Smart meters are a non-devolved matter, however, we continue to work with Smart Energy GB, Ofgem and energy suppliers to ensure the needs of Welsh consumers are considered in the roll-out of smart meters. Smart Energy GB's research shows 86 per cent of households with smart meters make changes to their behaviour to save energy and this will be important if we are to achieve our ambitions for eradicating fuel poverty and also, of course, for achieving our ambitious decarbonisation targets.
Smart meters are significant, but there are, of course, other initiatives we must adopt in Wales if we are to eradicate fuel poverty. For example, Wales will be participating in Energy Systems Catapult's Fair Futures programme. The programme aims to understand how to design and deliver services to consumers facing difficulties, with low household incomes and high cost of adequate energy in their homes. The initial focus will be on thesmart systems and heat programme area of Bridgend County Borough Council, but will spread to other areas as the Fair Futures programme develops.
The most effective way we can tackle fuel poverty is to improve the energy efficiency of homes of those on low incomes or living in the most deprived areas of Wales. We are doing this effectively through the Welsh Government Warm Homes programme, which includes Arbed and Nest. Warm Homes Nest is our demand-led fuel poverty scheme where households can access free, impartial advice and support to help them reduce their energy bills. Advice is provided in areas such as saving energy and water and energy tariffs. Nest also provides advice and referrals on broader issues, including benefit entitlement checks and debt advice, including money management.
Ofgem has reported an increase in the number of customers in Wales switching energy supplier. Latest figures show the number of people who switched their energy provider in 2016 was higher in Wales than the rest of GB. This is why the adviceservice through Warm Homes is so important, and we will build on this through the new Warm Homes programme to ensure more homes are getting the best deal, with potential savings of over £200 a year. I would also like to see energy suppliers doing more to ensure customers are on the most appropriate tariffs, rather than continually overpaying on standard variable tariffs.
For those most in need, and living in theleast energy-efficient properties, Nest also offers a tailored package of free home energy improvement measures,such as boiler and heater upgrades and installation. Alongside Nest, we have our area-based fuel poverty scheme, Warm Homes Arbed. Arbed focuses upon improving the energy efficiency of homes in some of the most deprived areas. The scheme aims to reduce the carbon footprint of Wales's existing housing stock and, in doing so, provides resilience for households against rising energy costs.
I've maintained the Welsh Government's commitment to action on fuel povertywith a new Warm Homes programme commencing in the spring, which will run for the long term. As Mark Isherwood welcomed, we will invest a total of £104 million in Welsh Government Warm Homes, enabling us to improve up to 25,000 homes of those on low incomes or living in the most deprived areas of Wales. Our investment will also lever in up to £24 million of EU funding in addition to funding from the UK energy company obligation.
Since 2011, we've invested over £240 million to improve the energy efficiency of over 45,000 homes of those on low incomes or living in the most deprived areas. There are some concerns fuel poverty and vulnerable households could be left behind with the smart revolution taking place in energy.Once again, this is why the advice offered to householders within our Warm Homes programme is so important. Nest has provided impartial advice and support to over 98,000 households since 2011.
And whilst I am proud of this Government's ongoing commitment to tackling fuel poverty, there is, of course, more to be done. In November last year, I issued a written statement where I set out my ambition to increase the scale and rate of residential energy efficiency retrofit in Wales. The Environment (Wales) Act 2016 sets our ambition to reduce emissions in Wales by 80 per cent by 2050. The evidence tells us that to achieve our aim, emissions from buildings will need to be close to zero. Currently, homes contribute approximately 15 per cent of Wales's total emissions. Achieving reduced emissions of this scale will require new homes and buildings to be much more energy efficient. It will also require energy efficient appliances and changes to the way we heat our buildings.
Crucially, it will also require the dramatic upscaling of energy efficiency retrofit works on existing homes. Around 70 per cent of homes that will exist in the 2050s will have been built before 2000. My officials are therefore developing options for new interventions, examining how services could be established, operated and funded to deliver not only benefits to those in fuel poverty, but also wider economic, social and environmental benefits for Wales, including decarbonisation. Thank you.

Thank you. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:06.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

David Rees: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the future of the Swansea Bay city deal?

Mark Drakeford: Over the next 15 years the £1.3 billion Swansea Bay city region city deal aims to boost the local economy by £1.8 billion and generate almost 10,000 new jobs, driving growth across the south-west Wales region.

Hefin David: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the introduction of a land transaction tax in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Agreement has been reached with the UK Government that land transaction tax will go live on 1 April 2018. Registration for agents to file returns online will begin shortly. A calculator of LTT is now available on the WRA website and our awareness raising programme continues.

Llyr Gruffydd: What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the UK Government regarding the impact of the proposed shared prosperity fund on North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I have raised the issue of replacement funding for structural funds with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. The UK Government have not yet shared any details of their proposals. Our position of full replacement funding and autonomy is clearly set out in our paper Regional Investment after Brexit.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on developments in relation to the Swansea Bay city deal?

Mark Drakeford: Progress is being made to progress the deal towards the next phase of delivery. Work is under way to develop the proposed projects into full business cases and to finalise the governance arrangements of the city deal.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the formula for calculating business rates?

Mark Drakeford: The non-domestic rates liability for each property is calculated by taking its rateable value, which is determined by the independent Valuation Office Agency, and multiplying it by the multiplier which is set annually by the Welsh Government in accordance with primary legislation.

David Melding: What additional financial provision has been made to the energy, planning and rural affairs portfolio to support national parks in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Against a backdrop of continuing cuts to our budget, we continue to face difficult choices and decisions. We need to look at every funding stream. We are working with National Park Authorities to explore ways of diversifying the funding base.

Jane Hutt: Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the roll-out of the real living wage accreditation to employers as a result of the code of practice on ethical procurement?

Mark Drakeford: The 'Code of Practice on Ethical Employment in Supply Chains' commits organisations that sign up to consider paying the Living Wage Foundation living wage. Of the 74 organisations that have signed up to the code, five are also living wage employers.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs

Darren Millar: What work is the Welsh Government doing to ensure cross-border collaboration on planning between local authorities?

Lesley Griffiths: Cross-border collaboration is an important feature of planning at every level—national, regional and local. I am having discussions on the national development framework with colleagues in Ireland and adjacent English regions, while local planning authorities should involve neighbouring authorities in the preparation of local development plans.

Sian Gwenllian: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Natural Resources Wales's recommendations for new byelaws on catch control, which have been submitted to the Welsh Government for approval?

Lesley Griffiths: Natural Resources Wales analysed the responses to the public consultation for proposed changes to byelaws for catch and release for salmon and sea trout. The findings were presented to the NRW Board on 18 January. They have not yet submitted their proposals. Until that time I cannot comment.

Questions to the Minister for Environment

Russell George: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on rights-of-way improvement plans?

Hannah Blythyn: Rights of way improvement plans help local authorities to identify, plan and prioritise improvements to their local rights of way network. The Welsh Government provides financial support to local authorities to deliver path improvements. This funding has made over 10,000 kilometres of paths easier to use.